to feel car driving is frequently unjustified

[Clairetree1]

Having sat in a traffic jam yesterday, in which I counted 10 buses being held up by around 45 cars, many of which only had one person in.

So say 60 people in cars holding up 600 people in buses....

just as a snapshot, throughout the whole journey, each person in a car seems to hold up 10 people in a bus, and if the cars were not there, those car travelers could easily fit on the buses, and everyone would be moving at least 3x as fast,

and I can't really see how this is allowed, or can be justified.

If you are in a city, or in another area with an adequate bus route, and are physically able to use the bus, how do you justify to yourself the danger, inconvenience and lethal pollution you subject everyone else to? Not to mention the further damage to the environment caused by concreting over parking spaces, car manufacture, etc.

I know some people are going to say they need the time, but if cars were banned from our cities and more people on public transport, everyone would be moving faster.

I know some people are going to say they are disabled, or have too much to carry, but some people who are disabled or have a lot to carry do use buses, they often have no choice! it doesn't automatically preclude you.

I know some people are just going to say they have a right to, but really, do you? Pollution is killing thousands of people a year in the UK, not to mention those killed in car crashes, the environmental damage done including global warming, and the sheer inconvenience to everybody else.

I know a couple of cities are planning on banning private cars, and I know petrol cars are on their way out, so things might well improve, but I just don't understand how we reached this position in the first place, so much death and destruction and time taken away by an entitled privileged few with such a selfish habit I can't understand how they justify to themselves.

I don't expect many people to agree with me, I think this privilege is so deeply ingrained in our culture that people genuinely feel they have a right to drive cars, when perfectly adequate public transport exist.

I don't think there is any moral right at all though, I think it is morally wrong in every way

It takes me 25 mins to walk to the nearest bus stop. Then I can only get a bus 1 mile down the road, because there aren't any other routes from my house. If I cut out the first bus it would take me getting on for 45 minutes to walk to the bus station, then the bus I get on would take twice as long as the car journey would to wherever it is I'm going. Then there's the cost, a £5 day ticket probably, well I wouldn't pay that for parking or in fuel. It's not cost effective, and let's face it it's a fucking ballache if you don't live in a big city.

I'm sure there are plenty of car journeys that could be replaced by public transport. But it's perhaps not as simple as you might hope. There's a big supermarket I go to occasionally. It's a 10-15 minute drive away. To take the bus, I'd have a 10 minute wak to the bus stop; the bus is once very 30 minutes. The journey takes around 20 minutes. Then it's a 5+minute walk to the supermarket. So potentially going to the supermarket by bus could be over 1 hour by public transport, compared to 10 minutes by car. Allowing for the return journey (slower, weighed down by shopping) - public transport potentially adds 2 hours to my shopping trip. I'm simply not going to do it.

@ikabod

I agree with you entirely, this is exactly what I am saying. there are journeys when a car is a sensible, reasonable choice, and their are journeys when it is a selfish unnecessary privilege.

I don't know what the answer is, I am glad some cities are thinking of banning private cars, that is certainly a step in the right direction. Some countries in the world ration car use, normally by something such as only one car per household, and linking the number plate to which days of the week you are allowed to drive, etc.

I suppose as you can see from this thread, many people are using cars when there is no other real alternative, but many are also using them because of simple priviledge and preference.

Raising, say doubling or tripling petrol prices for private cars may lesson car use. It wouldn't stop rich people using them as much, but no one could seriously complain about that, as it is a priviledge that is decided by wealth already.

In other words people who are rich enough to own and use a car now, when many people can't, are not in a position to complain if the cost of car use rises out of their range, and only people richer than them can use cars unnecessarily, as they were only able to use cars unnecessarily in the first place because of being richer than other people who couldn't. They can't accept it is only for people of a certain income when that works in their favour, then say that's not fair when they are no longer in that income bracket themselves!

I used to get the train to work from my local station. It took 25 minutes and came every 10 minutes. I got the bus a couple of times. It took 90 minutes and is less regular. Any time I'd have to take the bus I'd drive instead.

Until there are reliable bus services, regularly, I'll continue to drive

Some buses are hybrid but most chuck out huge amounts of old wally from their exhausts so I fail to see how they are more environmentally friendly than a car

I agree with you OP. Of course there will always be situations where it is necessary to use a car but to use it for every journey without any thought to its environmental impact, as many people do, is unjustifiable. And don't get me started on people who leave their engines running while pulled over/parked...

Sorry but public transport is VILE. It’s the biggest motivaton to start driving. Sorry I don’t want to be near screaming children, some twat playing shite music loudly, creepy perverts, some drunk man drinking and harassing other passengers, people with shit hygiene/stinking food etc in general, beggars etc. Public transport is beyond disgusting. I have seen videos online of people stripping off and using the handrails as a stripper pole - I don’t even want to touch handrails after seeing that.

The only acceptable forms to me are in London where the tube gets you around much quicker than driving in traffic, and long distance trains (2 hours plus) where driving would be quite a task.

Im guessing op never buys anything online then, or buys anything that's been imported, and only buys locally grown food in season that she can get to the farm shops etc by bus. Because a massive amount of pollution is caused by freight and food moving around the world. How much is being caused by people buying online and getting small items delivered rather than buying from the high street?

I guess foreign holidays are out for you op.

The bus to work costs me £4 return. My car costs less than £1. Nice for you if you can afford to spend an extra £15 a week on your principles but I can't, and to be honest it's not something I really care about.

What a thread, the arguments are great and very well put, but, if I can't get there in my car then I don't go.

DD2 used to get a bus to work in another town. I can't count how many times, she rang me up to say that the bus should be every half an hour; she had waited 1 or 2 hours....could I give her a lift, as she would get into trouble at work for being so late?

As for This is partly what i mean by the assumption that a car is needed. You can manage without.

You may be able to manage without, but DD has a motability car, precisely because of the difficulties of using public transport for her and us! Think - being on a train with her, she has a big seizure and is unconscious for 2 - 3 hours, and you need to get her off the train in 20 minutes. Manhandling an unconscious adult off a train is very difficult....especially they may come to at any minute, in a very aggressive state or run off, out of control, oblivious of the dangers!

I know I’m going on and on about this, but on the first page you replied to me saying I probably didn’t want to take public transport to work.; I’ve asked a few times, am I justified when I finish in the early hours to jump in my car?

For work I have to drive. I visit several different locations per day and very few of them are easily accessible by public transport. When they are, it usually takes at least twice as long and that's not taking into account the time it takes to actually find accurate information on bus routes in unfamiliar towns. It would also mean lugging heavy kit around that I need to do my job. Just not worth it. If the law were to insist my employer provides a more environmentally friendly car though I'd be up for that.

A few weeks ago I did use public transport for a city centre meeting as my car was in for a service. It was a 15 minute bus journey, a 20 minute wait at the station (I had to arrive in plenty of time for the train as the buses here are so unreliable), an hour on the train, and a 15 minute walk at the other end. When I had to return to the same place the following week it took me 30 minutes in the car door to door, and cost 3 times less. So while I would love to do my bit re pollution, as a responsible employee I can't.

The pressure should be on government to properly fund or at least incentivise reliable, fast and cost effective public transport in places that aren't London. Attempting to make people feel bad for living their lives according to the least bad option available isn't going to help.

My son reckons we will be able to summon free driverless cars to take us to a particular supermarket, no need to own a car. You'd call another one to take you home.

He says on the way the car would tell you about the special offers at the supermarket.

It could work!

The motor lobby has hamstrung our transport policy.

Cars:
Kill people, especially children and old people, through air pollution
Kill people through crashes
Keep kids inside getting fat and anxious because street play is not safe
Contribute to climate change
Damage communities by reducing social contact, neighbours knowing each other etc

But driving is generally cheaper than the bus. You don't have to pay for all the harm it does, so unless you're prepared to pay a premium for your conscience, you end up driving and feeling bad about it.

Using public transport for me and My kids commute each day costs substantially MORE than doing it in a car. It’s not all about money. It’s about practicality and actually having some TIME in my own home with my kids each day

Some of the comments on here about the type of people who take public transport are just vile, condescending and classist. It's a real eye-opener.

It's easy to call cars an unnecessary privilege when you live in a part of the country with an effective public transport system 🙄

Does OP live in some other country where only rich people own and use cars?

In my experience it's more likely that wealthy people do NOT run their own car frequently, because they don't need to travel to work or on their own errands.

clairetree1 Again, how do you expect people to get home at unsociable hours or is that ok with you?

So what about shift workers?

well, as I keep saying, there are times when a car is a sensible option, and for safety at night yes, and for some shift workers, yes,

but there are other times when shift workers can perfectly easily use public transport, I commute in the mornings with night shifters on their way home!

If I lived in London or somewhere with good public transport I wholeheartedly agree with you. However I don’t. Public transport near me is infrequent, time consuming and downright expensive. I used to catch the train into work (after driving the 15 miles to the train station as there were no buses) and it cost me over double what it did to drive in. That included the cost of petrol, parking, tax and insurance.

I lost my licence for 6 months a few years ago and as a result I had to rely upon public transport. It used to take me over 2 hours each way to commute, and that was even relying upon a friend to give me a lift to the train station. If I hadn’t had that, I would have had to resign from my job as there were no buses to the train station that early in the morning to get into into town to start work at 9am.

The key is to give us the same level and service of public transport you get in the large cities and people would use it.

That’s how I justify using my car. Without cars, people who have to move everything closer to cities to enable them to get into work.

As I shift worker I would NEVER use public transport to get to work even when I’m dayshift.

Raising, say doubling or tripling petrol prices for private cars may lesson car use. It wouldn't stop rich people using them as much, but no one could seriously complain about that, as it is a priviledge that is decided by wealth already.

So fuck the rural poor, eh?

Does OP live in some other country where only rich people own and use cars?

of course only rich people own and use cars!

They are expensive luxuries.

Beyond the wildest dreams of most of the world's population!

A car is an absolute necessity for a lot of people.

For example, I live rurally, my nearest bus stop is six miles away. My job before I became a SAHM required in the job spec that you had to have a car.

Banning private cars in city centres is madness. In a work day, I might have had to go to two city centres and a rural village. It just wouldn't work without a car.

An electric car wouldn't work in that instance either, as you'd have to take significant time out of the working day to charge it again due to the high mileage.

In addition, there is a safety aspect to cars that you don't have with public transport. It's not really workable to take an isofix and car seat on a bus is it? Most don't have seatbelts or sufficient seating. Not to mention having to walk after getting off the bus / train in the dark at night.

I love my car and ride share with colleagues as much as possible. My greatest contribution to the environment is not having children. I'm keeping my car.