To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

Miralis because they are the ones reaping the benefits. They are the ones with the voice in the society who can change things but choose not to.

*Burkas are ridiculous and make women look ridiculous.

It’s ludicrous for any feminist to defend them*

Agreed. The culture is eating itself at this point.

I saw some reporter on Sky, Kay something or other, seriously try to equate the facial injuries of Simon Weston with a woman wearing a burka. “You can’t see the facial expressions of either so why is one acceptable and the other isn’t?” You just know she thought that was a total burn, while the entire viewing public sat there open-mouthed at the level of stupid.

Sexism is sexism whether its under the guise of religion or not.

The religion itself should not be tolerated.

It is not ok for Christians to act in a homophobic way, regardless of archaeic teachings.

Believe what you like (your loss) but it does not enable you to treat others in a way that would otherwise not be allowed.

They are the ones with the voice in the society who can change things but choose not to.

The women are telling us that they actively choose to do this. Either you don't believe them (in which case we should ban the burqa/niqab) or you do and in that case they are no more or less mock-worthy then the men who have been brought up with the same beliefs.

Personally I much prefer to have obnoxious ideas out in the open where we can see them, develop counter-arguments and deal with them.

Agreed.

Many have said in the past that if we lose free speech we risk the "echo chamber" effect where radicalization goes underground, unchallenged and becomes a problem.

We were a country with free speech where violent extremists were something of a joke, could not get any traction, were defeated and rejected in the harsh light of public scrutiny. The NF etc could get nowhere.

Now we are a country that arrests people for opinions, and look where we are - radicalization is rife in various camps, having been driven underground it happens away from the public eye, and as a result we have lots of problems.

We have forgotten the benefits of free speech, and as such are experiencing the predictable results of an inferior approach.

We have forgotten the benefits of free speech, and as such are experiencing the predictable results of an inferior approach.

Something else is going on, more worrying I think: with freedom comes choice, and choice is confusing, and with confusion comes a (subconscious) desire to be told what to do. That’s what opens the door to authoritarianism.

I wonder if women agree with do have Stockholm syndrome. It's rather like a Jewish person choosing to wear a yellow star or a black person choosing to put themselves last because they say they believe in apartheid.

Many women are Muslims and don't wear any head scarf at all and wear western clothes.
I guess they have been brought up in a Liberal household... Whilst retaining the faith.
Other households are much stricter, across all regions of course and that will constrict the thought processes of any child. Its the norm and what you do...

We see all the time how even Xmas traditions are embedded in people's lives and psyche. How they can't stray away from the the Xmas they had as a child!

That's one event once a year. Imagine what it's like in an uber restrictive strict Conservative family, surrounded by strict community... And lots of religious instruction.

I wonder if women agree with do have Stockholm syndrome. It's rather like a Jewish person choosing to wear a yellow star or a black person choosing to put themselves last because they say they believe in apartheid

I see what you are saying but the yellow stars and apartheid were inflicted on all Jews and black people - men, women and children - by others. This is an 'in-group' choice that is not universally welcomed with Islam, and I don't see that these women in the UK are any different from other people in the UK who choose to do something that stands out from the crowd and who, with each attack or abuse, feels that they are "closer to God" and that their heavenly reward is going to be greater.

This is an 'in-group' choice that is not universally welcomed with Islam, and I don't see that these women in the UK are any different from other people in the UK who choose to do something that stands out from the crowd

Agreed.

It’s an aggressive political statement that has no religious imperative. It’s part of the drive to make Islam above criticism and open debate.

Look at the hysterical cries of “Islamophobia” over an article that actually defended the right of women to wear this oppressive garment.

If you’ve never been forced to cover your head or face because of your genitals, by men who do not cover theirs, you should think hard about “defending the rights and choices” of your sisters who are.

It’s a misogynistic practice. I choose to live where I do because I will never ever be forced to cover my head or face again.

And yet ironically, the right to force me is being defended all around me in the media, on the street, in shops.

Please speak out, while we still have voices, against this medieval and barbaric and terrifying practice that silences women and makes them invisible.

Well said Backyard, well said

Great post Backyard99

This medieval nonsense has no place in any society that values women as equal members of society to men. No place.

I don’t know if it’s neen mentioned up thread (too lazy to read it all sorry!) but I was really really surprised when I found out yesterday that it’s estimated that only 300 women in the UK regularly wear a Burka. Given this it seems madness that a prominant politician would make a stand on this non issue unless there was an ulterior motive. As a problem it really is practically non existent.

Well said, @backyard99

Something else is going on, more worrying I think: with freedom comes choice, and choice is confusing, and with confusion comes a (subconscious) desire to be told what to do. That’s what opens the door to authoritarianism.

That's a charitable way of putting it, I'd use the words "complacent" and "spoilt", but yes the principle is the same.

Every woman has the right to express her opinion and herself. That is a hard won thing, hard fought. It also underpins the safety and happiness of not just us as individuals, but our society as a whole, but people have decided to dispense with it because where's the harm.

I feel the same watching this phenomenon unfold, as I would feel if people wanted to roll any other right back 150 years because where's the harm.

I

'And yet ironically, the right to force me is being defended all around me in the media, on the street, in shops.

Please speak out, while we still have voices, against this medieval and barbaric and terrifying practice that silences women and makes them invisible.'

Yes I hear you Backyard

Yes I also like how Maajid Nawaz puts it:

"I’m not advocating banning this monstrosity but I refuse to defend it. It deserves to be ridiculed. Not the women inside it. Women defending this have Stockholm syndrome. Liberals defending this are akin to conservatives defending the confederate flag. It is not offensive to remind everyone that this isn’t normal. It is offensive to advocate for this to become normalised. "

Every woman has the right to express her opinion and herself. That is a hard won thing, hard fought. It also underpins the safety and happiness of not just us as individuals, but our society as a whole, but people have decided to dispense with it because where's the harm.

ImAIdoot , I can't tell from this whether you are criticising the people saying the niqab should be banned.

Or criticising the people saying that the niqab shouldn't be banned.

Could you clarify?

*I saw some reporter on Sky, Kay something or other, seriously try to equate the facial injuries of Simon Weston with a woman wearing a burka. “You can’t see the facial expressions of either so why is one acceptable and the other isn’t?”

There’s another one for the KayBurley’s worst moments tape. I don’t really think you can take anything KB says as indicative of the argument of a group of people. On any other day she might be the one saying Muslim women are like bank robbers.

I don't see how we can ban it and maintain a free society - as I said in a PP, the inconvenient truth is that principles of freedom apply to the people you don't agree with expressing themselves as much as they do to you, and you uphold them in both cases equally.

On the basis of the same principles, everyone has the right to express their opinions about things like ideologically legitimized misogyny, or indeed criticize any religion without the conversation being shut down, or as the law now allows arrested.

The resilience of free societies comes from being able to question what you see as bad ideas even when everyone else hates it being done. Placing limitations on that should be done with the greatest care possible.

Backyard99 spot on. Excellent post.

it’s estimated that only 300 women in the UK regularly wear a Burka. As a problem it really is practically non existent

If this really does refer to the burka I can just about accept the figures, but I thought most of the angst was around the use of the niqab?

And yes, I realise many aren't too sure of the difference

I see women wearing niqab where I live. Not many, but they are around. But then hijab is fairly commonplace where I live. The abaya is also fairly common, especially amongst older women.

I have never seen a women in a burqa here I think the word is often used for full body and face covering

It is the most restrictive of clothes the head dress doesn’t allow much movement of the head so women can be monitored on who or what they look at

These items of clothing are ere designed to keep women controlled like cloth chains. I am not for banning women wearing it in public but I am for professionals and students. These cloth chains have no place in a progressive society but control of what women always wear isn’t something I can support

The real debate is about face veils of any form isn't it?

The resilience of free societies comes from being able to question what you see as bad ideas even when everyone else hates it being done

That’s the problem in a nutshell.

Everyone around me is so afraid of ostracism, ridicule, taunts of racism and Islamophobia or (I wish this were hyperbole) death, that no honest open critical debate happens.

This is mirrored in wider society with people (well-meaning or cowards, I can’t decide) leaping in to defend misogyny, sexism, gender apartheid.

My acquaintances are very very quick to shout loudly about injustice by what they see as white supremacists.

I sometimes think this unconscious ringfencing of any debate about Islam by the media and vocal people in the West, disguised as protection and anti Islamophobia, is just as racist.

We should all be allowed to debate what is and is not reasonable in civilised society.

And take it from me, being forced to cover myself because I am a woman, in 2018, is nothing short of barbaric.