To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

Ghosto

They weren’t part of your imagination you just got your dates mixed up. As I guess you don’t actually remember the 70s.

That was 50s/60s not the 1970s!

Beliveitornot

Mmmm ok so many contradictions inconsistencies And strangeness in your posts I can’t really answer you.

You must live deep deep in the countryside.

*Believeitornot

Freedom of speech does not mean insulting people. Insulting people is insulting people, end of story.*

This is such a confused statement. Freedom of speech doesn’t exist without the right to offend people!

And anyway, what’s so bad about being insulted?

I said this earlier but I’m going to repeat it:

Tolerance means allowing people to believe what they want to believe, and allowing everyone else to mock them, criticise them and ridicule them. It’s not pretty, but that’s the price of freedom.

I believe in basic manners and freedom of speech. The latter of which, funnily enough, means I can say that I find certain things rude and offensive. Boris Johnson was rude and offensive and should have some bloody manners.

Otherwise why else do we teach our children to have manners and be polite do we tolerate rudeness and racism as freedom of speech or do we call it out? We call it out as rude. A defense of being racist/offensive isn’t about exercising the right to say what you like, it’s about being rude.

Name me a mainstream comedian who insults minorities for fun. Please do go ahead. That was what I was talking about.

As for being “deep in the countryside”, you couldn’t be more wrong.

Tolerance means allowing people to believe what they want to believe, and allowing everyone else to mock them, criticise them and ridicule them

Tolerance is about mutual respect, not being walked over.

jo Cox was killed by a terrorist whose line ‘Britsin First’ was widely reported by all the press

The Daily Mail also called him a 'fragile loner with mental health issues', diddums

You sound exactly like the BTL commentators for the "right wing press" when talking about how The Guardian/Indie portray people.

This is why political debate in our country is such a shambles.

@believeitornot

www.liveleak.com/view?t=4f6_1393176756

There’s 100’s on YouTube about all different religions

Billy Connolly is a bit old school for me I’m afraid. Haven’t watched his stuff since I was a kid.
When I’m watching the likes of mock the week or whatever, I don’t recall any insults towards minorities. Calling women wearing burqas post boxes or bank robbers etc etc.
I don’t deny that comedians take the piss - I just doubt that it’s actually that mainstream.

I’m mixed race so would take offence at racist humour and wouldn’t follow any such comedian.

And either way, no one has really answered why people think that freedom of speech is the freedom to be rude - rude without consequences.
There are consequences to being rude, and that includes people being offended and calling you out on it. Comedians do offend and make awful jokes which they’re, quite rightly, called out on.

I get the sense that some people in this thread think that people don’t complain about below the knuckle humour. Of course they do!!

Freedom of speech to utter anodyne platitudes that no one could possibly disagree with is no freedom at all. Except possibly for those whose minds are already so constricted that directing one's every thought along a narrow, well-trodden pathway is the summit of their intellectual ambition.

Boris + JRM = Dream team?

The majority of Tory grassroot support now want it, and it now looks like it could happen.

Boris is currently enjoying the sun in Italy, delighted at the furore his brilliantly written piece in The Telegraph has caused. May and the other remainers have played right into his hands with their overblown and ill-judged response.

A very smart man.

Believeitornot : It is a bit pointless only tolerating people we respect. Any useful tolerance would have to be wider than that or we'd have non stop quarrels in private and legal disputes in public.

I don't respect Johnson for example, at all.

*I believe in basic manners and freedom of speech. The latter of which, funnily enough, means I can say that I find certain things rude and offensive. Boris Johnson was rude and offensive and should have some bloody manners.

Otherwise why else do we teach our children to have manners and be polite hmm do we tolerate rudeness and racism as freedom of speech or do we call it out? We call it out as rude. A defense of being racist/offensive isn’t about exercising the right to say what you like, it’s about being rude.*

Of course you can “call out” whatever and whoever you want as being “rude”. Do it all day long, as loudly as you like if that floats your boat. That is you exercising your right to freedom of speech. And Boris Johnson exercises his right to freedom of speech when he mocks what someone else wears. That’s the way it works.

Respect has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or with tolerance. You don’t have to respect someone to tolerate them.

What you’re saying amounts to “I believe in free speech except when somebody is offended / insulted / rude / I personally don’t like what they have to say”. Sorry, but that’s not believing in free speech.

Boris was rude and needs manners. In some ways him mocking these ladies would be like him mocking silly black people on the cheap crappie bus, in apartheid sa.

So in that what yes it's rude.

But surely surely surely its more rude, offensive intolerant to have women walking around covered up etc!! Isn't this whereas the outrage should be going.

Beautifully put PP

I mean amicissima

I have no problem telling people I don't like their language or ideas, if I think it's a useful thing to do. Or just not going to see comedians who cross my line of what's acceptable.

That's not the same as demanding that the law shuts them up or using other means to intimidate them into silence.

Yy amici and they were offended when the suffragettes fought for the vote.

Freedom of speech to utter anodyne platitudes that no one could possibly disagree with is no freedom at all. Except possibly for those whose minds are already so constricted that directing one's every thought along a narrow, well-trodden pathway is the summit of their intellectual ambition.

Brilliantly put UpOnTheDowns.

What you’re saying amounts to “I believe in free speech except when somebody is offended / insulted / rude / I personally don’t like what they have to say”. Sorry, but that’s not believing in free speech

Incorrect. You’ve misunderstood.

Freedom of speech is about being able to say what you like without any legal ramifications.

I’m saying that actually, freedom of speech does not excuse the need to have some manners.

It’s one thing to say you think the burqa is oppressive and argue against it but it’s quite another to say that someone wearing one looks like a bank robber. The latter is rude.

I think you’re being disingenuous in suggesting that I’m conflating the two. I am not. In my mind there is a very clear distinction between expressing an opinion and being rude for the sake of it.

Where have I said anywhere that no one can express certain views.... where?

I haven’t. Don’t be ridiculous. I’ve said that BJ was rude and his rudeness (like any rudeness) is unacceptable.

Why did he have to resort to insults..... because he was appealing to the lowest common denominator and wanted to stir up bad feeling towards a minority.

I wouldn’t compare those campaigning against slavery and for the women’s vote to what Boris wrote. He was being rude.

What should the consequences be of being rude?.

The consequence of being rude is that people tell you that you’re rude and ask you to frame your discussion in a more polite way.

If you don’t, then fine. That’s your choice. Still makes you rude.

I’ve said nothing about him being expelled etc etc. Nothing. Because I don’t actually care if he is or not - he’s shown his true colours and I think it was unacceptable. What more do you think I’m going to call for

Yes amicissimma

I think it’s fair to say that without some very brave people taking a stand, going against the majority viewpoint and offending large numbers of other people, there would be very little social progress.

I'm trying to understand your posts.