To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

That was 50s/60s not the 1970s!

Congratulations on spectacularly missing the point.

My basic premise is that being rude and inflammatory- as he was - isn’t about freedom of speech.

It’s about him being rude and taking the piss. Being rude and offensive then saying “oh but freedom of speech” doesn’t negate the need to have manners.

Fine, Believeitornot. Boris was rude. He lacks manners. In your opinion.

So what?

One shining light making that stand... Known in UK anyway (I know it's happening across the world) is the Oxford iman.

So what?

The what is that I express my opinion that he’s rude and offensive. And actually as a public figure he should have some thought about how he conducts himself.

We don’t go through life being rude and expecting no reaction on the basis that we have freedom of speech. If we did, where would that leave us?

Unless, of course, women in burqas are seen as fair game

Believeitornot: I agree wholeheartedly!

But tbh you can't demand people have good manners.

Because : freedom of speech!

I don't use the concept of freedom of speech as an excuse because I approve of this spoiled oaf but on the contrary as a defence against that intolerant me who'd like to have a go at him. iyswim.

The what is that I express my opinion that he’s rude and offensive.

Yes, you’ve done that now, several times. Shall we move on?

And actually as a public figure he should have some thought about how he conducts himself.

I’m sure Boris is very well aware of the way he conducts himself.

We need to be very careful taking offence, and claiming that others 'might be' offended in order to shut down ideas we don't agree with

Very well said - and excellent examples to go with it

In some ways him mocking these ladies would be like him mocking silly black people on the cheap crappie bus, in apartheid sa.

Yeah, he's kinda been down that road before...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/jan/23/london.race

No . You should read the whole article . And we have freedom of speech in this country. I think he looks like a scruffy idiotic buffoon , but he was actually a good mp but that’s my opinion and I am entitled to it.

We need to be very careful taking offence, and claiming that others 'might be' offended in order to shut down ideas we don't agree with

Describing religious attire as a letterbox isn't an "idea" its just fucking rude.

Name me a mainstream comedian who insults minorities for fun. Please do go ahead. That was what I was talking about.

When I’m watching the likes of mock the week or whatever, I don’t recall any insults towards minorities. Calling women wearing burqas post boxes or bank robbers etc etc.
I don’t deny that comedians take the piss - I just doubt that it’s actually that mainstream.

Have I Got News For You.
Ian Hislop, Stephen Fry & Paul Merton taking the piss out of someone wearing a burka.

order-order.com/2018/08/10/bbc-guardian-also-mocked-burka/

I think freedom of speech only goes as far as the law.

He was free to say it. It wasn't illegal. Others can disagree or be as offended as they want. The Conservative Party can take what action they deem appropriate.

Personally, I don't think there was anything wrong with the argument but found the language distasteful but that doesn't really matter.

He made a political calculation to get coverage on an issue he has public support for.

Believeitornot: Who gets to decide what is rude and what is not? You? Me?

Put the spade down and stop digging....

Be offended! Debate! Be upset! Debate! Offend! Debate! Take the piss and offend/laugh debate! Don’t debate don’t engage/engage.

Whatever!!! Free speech is a given in the UK within very wide limits.

That’s how it must stay.

ghosto

I didn’t miss any point you didn’t make one you got yourself mixed up between the 50s and the 70s

So you think that we should just forget manners then because freedom of speech trumps all.

Yes right, that’s what freedom of speech is all about

Honestly, some people are actually fucking stupid. Or deliberately dense. Can’t work out which.

Which is rude. And I would expect to be called rude and I wouldn’t normally use such language but hey freedom of speech discounts the need for manners.

Fucks sake.

Well done DaisyTwirl, you’ve found more examples of people being rude.

What point are you trying to prove? That it’s okay to call people names?

How about learning the history of the burqa, and the arguments for a burqa then bringing it down that way...

Ah all these people who seem to think that it’s okay to be rude and call names.

Because I bet you all do it in your daily life. Boss annoys you? Throw an insult. Someone queue jumps, throw an insult.
You don’t do it, don’t pretend you do. And why not.... because you have manners.

I think so anyway.

If you’ve got a decent argument, you don’t need to call names.

No I won't forget my manners or values because of the behaviour of others. Why would I ?

Good night.

Describing religious attire as a letterbox isn't an "idea" its just fucking rude.

Well strictly speaking it is an idea. Perhaps not a very good one, but definitely an idea.

Anyhoo, not everyone thought it was rude. The muslim Uber driver I had last night thought it was funny. And also thought the burqua should be banned.

The muslim Uber driver I had last night thought it was funny. And also thought the burqua should be banned.

Well everyone loves a strawpoll...Baroness Warsi thinks differently.

It's interesting that we're on to the Suffragettes now, because the person Boris Johnson has been reminding me of all week is Edward Bernays. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Bernays was the tobacco advertising exec who more than doubled smoking rates amongst American women in the 1920s, by explicitly playing on feminist aims. He branded cigarettes "Torches of Freedom" for women, and staged a carefully scripted appearance by feminists smoking in the New York Easter parade. Through only good looking feminists, you understand.

His only aim was to sell more cigarettes.

I always think of him when I see pop-up "feminist champions" arriving to be suddenly terribly concerned about just one single issue.

Because I bet you all do it in your daily life. Boss annoys you? Throw an insult.

I think this raises a relevant issue. If I made the remarks Boris did at work I would be investigated by HR; Boris was at also at work, he is an MP if he speaks or writes on any subject while an MP, he is doing so as a publicly appointed officer. He is not, officially anyway, employed as a comedian. This means that his comments were not just rude they were in breach of the MP's code of conduct, his contract and company policy as it were. In addition he is an MP for an area with a significant Muslim community, he is supposed to support that community and represent them, ridiculing them goes against that. So he also breached his public duty/contract to his constituents.

He does not have freedom of speech that is unfettered, if he wants that he needs to resign and, from comments on here, pursue a possible future as a low-level comedian. He was additionally in breach of contract because he was not entitled to take on paid work until he had been out of his ministerial job for three months and also needed clearance after that.

When he wrote that article he was at 'work'. So he breached his duty as an MP representing his constituency, breached the Code of Conduct, and breached rules on taking on outside paid work. I know what would've happened to me if I did that at work and it would not have been good.

*Well done DaisyTwirl, you’ve found more examples of people being rude.

What point are you trying to prove? That it’s okay to call people names?

How about learning the history of the burqa, and the arguments for a burqa then bringing it down that way...*

You said:
"When I’m watching the likes of mock the week or whatever, I don’t recall any insults towards minorities. Calling women wearing burqas post boxes or bank robbers etc etc.
I don’t deny that comedians take the piss - I just doubt that it’s actually that mainstream."

And:
"Name me a mainstream comedian who insults minorities for fun. Please do go ahead."

I provided evidence that it does happen on mainstream TV & 3 mainstream comedians mocking the burka, as per your specific request.

Ah all these people who seem to think that it’s okay to be rude and call names.

Nobody said that. Of course most of us don’t go around insulting random people and calling them names. That would make day-to-day life extraordinarily difficult.

The point is that rudeness is completely subjective. As a PP asked you, who decides what is rude? Are you the arbiter of all that is rude? Should I be? What about the government?

And to a certain extent offense exists in the mind of the offender. My taxi driver from the other night wasn’t remotely offended by what Boris had said, despite being muslim. On the other hand, I once deeply insulted a beautiful singer friend of mine for telling her she looked “Amazonian” on stage. She thought I had called her fat, and didn’t talk to me for weeks. She found my compliment deeply offensive.

Things are not just objectively rude or not rude. It’s a bit more complex than that.