To think Boris Johnson should be be thrown out of Tory party?

[crunchymint]

He is clearly racist. He should be thrown out of the Conservative party.

*offense exists in the mind of the offended

My taxi driver from the other night wasn’t remotely offended by what Boris had said, despite being muslim

Maybe your taxi driver didn't want to be rude?

I find it worrying how few people understand what free speech means.

‘Doesn’t give you the right to offend people’ Yes it does unless you happen to brake one of several caveats such as slander inciting violence etc... causing offence is irrelevant.

MPs are not employees though.
There are always possible consequences.
If his constituents object to his comments they can vote him out.
Likewise his party could dump him.

(I'm not sure about any code of conduct for mps with teeth - didn't seem to affect Keith Vaz!)

He's paid a salary and he is bound to a code of conduct, if his party are bad at implementing that, it doesn't change that. And how do his constituents vote him out at this point. I doubt he would have said this in the run up to an election.

Also freedom of speech is not that straightforward here, in the US it's blanket because it's part of their constitution, whereas here it's related to various forms of legislation - many from the EU!

Is that meant as an encouragement to remain in EU Dottie or an incentive to leave!

Yes it’s ok to be rude and it’s ok to offend.

What don’t you understand

I thought what he said was fine. Women in full burqas look out of place, anachronistic, absurd and ridiculous. I hate seeing them dressed that way. I’m not sure if I’m annoyed by then or pity them. I have a slight sense the woman underneath is making a statement. I particularly dislike my children seeing them. How to explain it?

He plays his own game. He’s an elected MP, representing a group of people who have consciously voted for him. If they have a problem with him, he’ll be voted out.

Ridiculing something (using free speech) is part of a societies right to exert pressure on people. Its necessary and right that they do so. If a small group of people start wearing sieves on their head then we make fun of them (maybe call them tin heads), because its ridiculous and eventually they stop wearing sieves.

If people start covering their faces and we call them post boxes they hopefully they will stop covering their faces.

If we normalise ridiculous behaviour then we end up living in a circus, society fragments and violence starts to break out.

He plays his own game. He’s an elected MP, representing a group of people who have consciously voted for him. If they have a problem with him, he’ll be voted out.

MP's are still accountable for their actions between elections, not just on polling day

If people start covering their faces and we call them post boxes they hopefully they will stop covering their faces.

Right so you think bullying people into changing is the way to go?

Yes it’s ok to be rude and it’s ok to offend.

Where does this stop? Is it acceptable to be rude to someone because they use a wheelchair? Because they are a woman? Because they a minority group?

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility. Accountability. Particularly if you hold public office.

Where does this stop? Is it acceptable to be rude to someone because they use a wheelchair? Because they are a woman? Because they a minority group
But the burka is medieval and horribly restricting. A wheelchair is the opposite so I don't think you are comparing like with like.
I get your point but Burka's are pretty unique, worn by one sex only, uncomfortable.
I have tried one on when I lived in the Middle East, in case posters argue, they are difficult to wear and to walk or move much in. And the leather boullas (?sp), the mask like things over your face, are horrible.

It’s like wearing a straight jacket to stop women doing anything, complete control. I couldn’t go to the Middle East as I would refuse to wear one and then end up in prison or worse.

@ believeitornot

Are you sure you are from the uk?

I couldn’t go to the Middle East as I would refuse to wear one and then end up in prison or worse

You don't have to wear one (assume you mean burqa/niqab) in the Middle East.

I find it offensive to see someone wearing one of these things. It makes me feel angry and embarrassed - for them and for all women. It’s a horrible reminder of how women are treated as dirt in lots of countries. Any woman who “chooses” to wear this symbol of misogyny does not earn my respect.

It’s indecent to see this trundling down UK streets, an absolute embarrassment. I never quite know if I should laugh or cry.

Where does this stop? Is it acceptable to be rude to someone because they use a wheelchair? Because they are a woman? Because they a minority group?

Well, Nazis are a minority group. Don’t you want the right to be able to offend them?

Yes, we need to be able to have the freedom to offend everybody. Our society is capable of handling this. Most people understand that you’re not going to make many friends or build a career going around insulting disabled people.

It HAS to be this way in a tolerant society. We all have to have to right to believe what we believe, and other people have to have the right to mock and deride those beliefs. And yes, that includes everybody. No-one gets a special pass. Totalitarian regimes around the world always start by restricting free speech, and it’s very often in the name of protecting minority groups.

Personally I much prefer to have obnoxious ideas out in the open where we can see them, develop counter-arguments and deal with them.

2up - you use exactly the same language and express the same sentiments as "the pious" with regard to women in high heels, mini skirts and low cut tops.

Personally I much prefer to have obnoxious ideas out in the open where we can see them, develop counter-arguments and deal with them.

👍

Just musing here, but where mocking's concerned, isn't there a tendency to view this differently according to what folk can choose and what they can't? And isn't this perhaps why decent people avoid mocking because of disablement, skin colour, age, etc, while perhaps feeling less restricted around beliefs?

As I said, just a thought ...

As ever, Maajid Nawaz puts it very well:

"I’m not advocating banning this monstrosity but I refuse to defend it. It deserves to be ridiculed. Not the women inside it.^ Women defending this have Stockholm syndrome. Liberals defending this are akin to conservatives defending the confederate flag. It is not offensive to remind everyone that this isn’t normal. It is offensive to advocate for this to become normalised. "^

Daisy

Great post.

Ghosto again you scattergun. None said it was ok to mock disabled people. let’s at least try to be measured and sensible.

Back to the op no he shouldn’t apologise snd i loathe the man. Burkas are ridiculous and make women look ridiculous.

It’s ludicrous for any feminist to defend them and I would support a ban as this is a far more important message of how our society expects women to be seen and heard than it is for their choice to wear it in public.

I will happily ridicule the medieval cultural norm that see the niqab and burka as a requirement. They are not required by Islam. (DH is Muslim and dislikes the niqab).
I will happily ridicule misogynistic men who seek to restrict women’s freedoms.
However, I will not ridicule the women concerned. They are navigating social pressures, tradition, cultural clashes and whilst I might not agree with their choices I don’t think attacking them helps them. What I want for them is true freedom of choice.

Chaz, how is the man who is raised to believe that women's freedoms should be restricted any more mock-worthy than the woman who is raised with the same belief?