For thinking that this man should be banned from the shop forever?

[Ilovemuesli]

Hi,
So the following happened this morning and I am still in disbelief about it - and wholly disgusted with this man's attitude.

I was sitting in the cafe of a well-known supermarket with a couple of friends and my two month old DD. On the table in front of us were two girls, probably around 19/20 yrs old. They were caring for two boys who were about 9/10 years old and were obviously disabled - in wheelchairs e.t.c. The girls also had some jackets on with a charity logo printed on the back. Across the aisle from their table was a man and his wife having breakfast/coffee.

At one point one of the boys threw his bottle of pop in the air and it unfortunately hit the man's wife in her face. One of the girls immediately stood up to apologise, but the man started ranting and raving, swearing at the two girls who were looking after these boys and shouting at full volume that the children "should be made to leave" and that "they don't belong here". It was very upsetting for the poor children - it took a long time after the man had eventually left for the girls to calm the children down - the boy who threw the pop was particularly distressed.

The cafe assistant fetched the manager who took them aside for a private word then came to see the two girls and apologised, also saying that the wife had asked for a first aider but other than that there was nothing they could do for a genuine accident.

AIBU to still be outraged at this man's behaviour? In my opinion he should be banned from ever entering the shop again - I haven't really described everything he was shouting at them - and also me when I told him he should be ashamed of himself and his behaviour (I may have called him ignorant) It was clear that it was an accident, while I understand it won't have been nice to have had a bottle of pop hit you in the face, but demanding that the children be removed and that they don't belong in the same place as everyone else? In my opinion - he is an absolute disgraceful/disgusting human being. How dare he say that those children shouldn't be allowed in there? It was blatantly obvious that they were disabled and needed extra care, and the girl/carer had tried to apologise straightaway, but the language, the volume and the content of what he was saying is still making my blood boil nearly 11 hours later !

Sorry for the rant! Please tell me if I'm overreacting (!)

The disabled kids and the helpers should have left immediately after apologising. The man was was an idiot with anger controls issues from the sounds of it.

If he actually cared about his wife he would have been looking after her and not screaming at the children and their carers.

I don't think they should be there as they were clearly a danger to other customers.

@fleshmarketclose

"I like to think he learnt a thing or two that day."

That your husband's an abusive bully who'll likely do that to the wrong person one day and get a hard smack in the face? Did your child with SN witness this? I'd have thought he has enough problems without learning this behaviour? Does your husband treat you or your child like this? He will.

What ifs and maybes a plenty here!
I don't think it's 'obvious' from the OP that the children weren't being supervised properly. In the same way that we don't know what could be wrong with the woman who was hit, or the man who got angry, we also don't know what training (if any) the 'girls' have, and what disability specifically, the child who threw the bottle has, what his care plan says, and if this is a regular, rare or never happened before occurrence.
Having worked in care myself, the level of training is shocking most of the time, not taught how to deal with challenging behavior (not saying that's what this was) because well, the training is expensive and not mandatory. Other training such as manual handling and admin of drugs and minimum nvq 2 are mandatory now, so obviously the money goes into those areas.
It was from what I read, an unfortunate accident. The child didn't mean it, and the carer did apologise. The man was rightly upset, who wouldn't be? However, from what the OP described, it does sound like he was inferring that the boys shouldn't be there because of their disability. That's not right.
I would hope that the carers have reported the incident to their manager and that there are now procedures put in place to stop it happening again.
The man was shocked and upset, anger is a normal human reaction. Taking a disability and using it as an outlet for that anger is not a nice thing to do, however he did. I'm sure this incident is as much on the mind of the carers as it is the woman who was hurt.

That sounds scary. I witnessed someone shouting abuse at a lady when her son bumped a table in a cafe spilling hot coffee on him. It was over the top with abuse and threats. I simply pretended to call the police, saying I felt the child wasn't safe. The man shouting got up and left.

Lol at all these people saying they can see both sides.
Id assume you'd have reacted similar. Only because it was a couple of teenage girls of course.
If itd been a couple of burly men you'd have adjusted your reaction accordingly.
Just the same as all the other cretinous cowards that make the most if these opportunities.
Very rarely got much of a spine when faced with a capable adversary.

fleshmarketclose your father is no better than the man in the shop.

I was in my dad's restaurant with baby ds. He wasn't even misbehaving, just babbling away. He was actually being quite quiet for once.

The man a few tables away, came up and told me children had no place in restaurants. My dad (also a big man) came over asked him to repeat himself, told him to leave and not come back.

No need to grabbing anyone and threatening them.

Can't believe some of these replies the man was out of order- let's say it was a 2 yo child that threw the bottle - would he have behaved in the same way?? Absolutely disgusting behaviour those poor boys

Their additional needs are irrelevant; violence is not acceptable and the carers should not have allowed their charges to pose any kind of a risk to anyone

Oh FFS is all I am going up say to this.

OP - you could have reported him for a hate crime - shouting abuse at disabled people isn’t allowed.

What has become of our country that shouting ‘they don’t belong here’ at disabled children is seen as acceptable by a good chunk of mumsnet.

And anyone thinking that him referring to them not belonging here ‘didn’t necessarily refer to their disability’ - oh how lovely to be so fucking naive.

assaulted

Being accidentally hit in the face by a child chucking a bottle (presumably plastic as we’re is Tesco) is not a fucking assault.

So those of you who think these children shouldn’t be allowed out (because that’s what you’re saying if you think the man’s behaviour was ‘understsndable’ or ‘reasonable’( what would you like to see happen to these kids?

Lock ‘em up?

Plenty of people with learning disabilities ARE locked up. Around two and a half thousand people with LD’s are currently in hospitals (aka locked up) . About 1500 of those have been there for over 2 years (a sizeable number will have been locked up for a decade).

The vast majority of those should be living in the community. One of the biggest problems I have come to see is the lack of value placed on their lives. There is no political will to change anything.

Think this thread with it’s shouty intolerance and ridiculous ‘what ifs’ explains why.

I used to care for adults with dementia and other challenging needs and we never let them be in a situation where an incident like this could happen

Did they ever go out?

These were CHILDREN in a Tesco cafe? Where do you suggest they go that this ‘could never’ happen?

How on Earth does anyone know that it wasn’t the first time they threw something?

It’s actually quite hard to stop someone chucking something if it’s quick.

My friends son threw a chip at a bloke once on a ferry. He was 2 and NT and sat next to his sister with special needs (who my friend’s attention was on). The bloke got arsey in that case as well because the chip landed on his newspaper. Tit.

@Devilishpyjamas

Being hit in the face when someone throws a bottle is not assault but shouting at the person who threw it is a hate crime?

Are you trolling or genuinely losing grip on reality?

No gunny - assualt requires intent.

And shouting ‘they don’t belong here’ at someone with a disability pretty much fits the definition www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/disability-hate-crime/

And if I ever see someone shout ‘they don’t belong here’ at a disabled person I will be (correctly) reporting it as a hate incident.

The level of intolerance on this thread is shocking and explains why people with disabilities are so vulnerable.

Incidentally I did report a shop assistant in Virgin who huffed and puffed and rolled her eyes at someone with learning disabilities who was taking a while to find his correct money. (Not to the police, to her employer). Not everyone will tolerate shit attitidudes.

Well done to the OP for standing up to this vile man.

Some of the replies on here are shameful. The man's reaction was uncalled for and offensive. There's no excuse. I can't believe people are dreaming up scenarios that make it ok.

Can't believe some of these replies!

Yes what happened is awful and the man has every right to be upset about it, but his behaviour was unacceptable.

There's a lot of assumptions on here. I'm interested to know how many people making them have cared for young people with challenging or complex needs... if not feel free to volunteer at a local organisation and see what it's really like.

No where in the OP does it suggest the children were regular throwers or that the carers were being incompetent. I work with amazing, well trained carers and occasionally, despite our best will and attention unwanted behaviour does occur ... normally from those with no form for that behaviour because we don't have tight of their hands/arms all the time throughout the day. We also support them to integrate and be independent where possible which means not always being an inch away breathing down their neck.

If the carers were working for an organisation a risk assessment of the behaviour and risks of the children and the venues will have been carried out. No one on here knows if it's the first time/a rare occurrence or something that happens regularly. If it happens regularly then yes perhaps it isn't the best place to take the children, however if it's never happened before then the carers really couldn't have been expected not to take them. That's like suggesting all parents with a child with ASC shouldn't attend somewhere because some children with ASC might act in such a way.

As for being properly supervised.. who says they weren't? You can't stop a child having a drink, you can't hold it there for them if there's no reason to suspect they'll do anything other than drink. On that basis if you're not expecting it to be chucked unless you have lightening reflexes you might not be able to stop it. I'm sure we've all had times when our DC have lobbed something and we haven't caught it because we just weren't expecting it, even though we all know small children are terrors for throwing things!

What should happen is the incident be recorded, feedback to the managers of the organisation and adapted risk assessments carried out now in the light of the behaviour that occurred. As I said the man had every right to be angry and potentially go back to the care company and ask questions about supervision/risk etc. But it is not acceptable and is quite shocking the amount of assumptions and disabalist comments on here.

I don't think they should be there as they were clearly a danger to other customers

1. what evidence do you have that they were unsafe for other people?Where should they be? In an institution?

2. People with disabilities are vulnerable (as this incident demonstrates). Eg metro.co.uk/2018/07/30/teenagers-covered-disabled-woman-flour-eggs-posed-picture-7774966/
   how do we protect them from those who exploit that vulnerability.

The man was shocked and upset, anger is a normal human reaction. Taking a disability and using it as an outlet for that anger is not a nice thing to do, however he did. I'm sure this incident is as much on the mind of the carers as it is the woman who was hurt.

Indeed, and there isn't much of a reasonable expectation of quiet, considered, friendly discourse when you've got to the point of people being hit in the face by a stranger. Frankly people have adrenaline responses to assault, so while he was awful the stark reality is that sometimes people are awful if they or a loved one get suddenly hurt. Heat of the moment and all that.

This is why those caring for vulnerable people have to be quite careful of letting that sort of thing happen, because they are responsible for it.

Nobody else has signed up for that responsibility, certainly nobody else has signed up for being hit in the face, and those cared for haven't signed up for being put in a frightening (potentially even dangerous) situation.

It's probably a lesson learnt for the carers more than anything else. Certainly the couple affected could act with more saint-like grace but sometimes people won't, and to be fair they have never agreed to either: managing interactions/safety in public can be as much a part of being responsible for vulnerable people as anything else.

It's a hard job. I hope everyone concerned is alright now.

His reaction (whilst scary and horrible for the children and their carers) was natural amd normal. That doesnt make him a bad person ffs. It makes him a normal one. Clearly no one here understands human shock. Its the same concept as when a parent sees their kid narrowly avoid being hit by a car and the first reaction is to slap them and shout. (And yes thats also common and normal).

And what could the carers have done differently? If said child frequently threw bottles presumably he wouldn’t have had one in his hands.

And no what they man shouted is not acceptable. Shouting and swearing at disabled children is not a shocked reaction. It’s a predjudiced angry reaction.

If the children are not being supervised adequately, and that lack of supervision means that projectiles are within reach, then... isn't the man right that they shouldn't be in there? Not because the children have disabilities but because these disabilities are not being appropriately managed? We need to sometimes tolerate the intolerant...

just to correct the pp devilish who said it was a hate crime - it was a hate incident NOT a HATE CRIME - there is a major differance. Verbally abusing someone (if that was what the man said) is not a hate crime and to say it was is a massive over-reaction.