For thinking that this man should be banned from the shop forever?

[Ilovemuesli]

Hi,
So the following happened this morning and I am still in disbelief about it - and wholly disgusted with this man's attitude.

I was sitting in the cafe of a well-known supermarket with a couple of friends and my two month old DD. On the table in front of us were two girls, probably around 19/20 yrs old. They were caring for two boys who were about 9/10 years old and were obviously disabled - in wheelchairs e.t.c. The girls also had some jackets on with a charity logo printed on the back. Across the aisle from their table was a man and his wife having breakfast/coffee.

At one point one of the boys threw his bottle of pop in the air and it unfortunately hit the man's wife in her face. One of the girls immediately stood up to apologise, but the man started ranting and raving, swearing at the two girls who were looking after these boys and shouting at full volume that the children "should be made to leave" and that "they don't belong here". It was very upsetting for the poor children - it took a long time after the man had eventually left for the girls to calm the children down - the boy who threw the pop was particularly distressed.

The cafe assistant fetched the manager who took them aside for a private word then came to see the two girls and apologised, also saying that the wife had asked for a first aider but other than that there was nothing they could do for a genuine accident.

AIBU to still be outraged at this man's behaviour? In my opinion he should be banned from ever entering the shop again - I haven't really described everything he was shouting at them - and also me when I told him he should be ashamed of himself and his behaviour (I may have called him ignorant) It was clear that it was an accident, while I understand it won't have been nice to have had a bottle of pop hit you in the face, but demanding that the children be removed and that they don't belong in the same place as everyone else? In my opinion - he is an absolute disgraceful/disgusting human being. How dare he say that those children shouldn't be allowed in there? It was blatantly obvious that they were disabled and needed extra care, and the girl/carer had tried to apologise straightaway, but the language, the volume and the content of what he was saying is still making my blood boil nearly 11 hours later !

Sorry for the rant! Please tell me if I'm overreacting (!)

Actually Ethylred if they don’t have capacity then they don’t (like small children).

I’ll cut and paste part of a reply I made on the thread running at the moment about the horrible yobs pelting a disabled woman with flour and taking photos with her. Everyone is oh so outraged.

And meanwhile elsewhere on mumsnet we’re being told that only people who can be guaranteed to behave appropriately should be allowed out. That’s my learning disabled son out then. That attitude (which is rife in another current thread) is every bit as much disablism as this horrendous act. If you think that people with learning disabilities shouldn’t have the same right as access because they ‘might’ scald a baby (they might, so might anyone - I was scalded as a small child by someone with no learning disabilities in an accident in public), or they might push someone in the road and make them die (they might, so might anyone I was knocked into the road by a middle aged male commuter rushing past me last week, I suppose that could have made me die of a bus happened to becoming past), then you are every bit as disablist as these yobs

I think my son would probably rather be pelted in flour than told he’s not allowed out near normal people - which isn’t to diminish the horribleness of this incident - just to point out that what people (on here) see as acceptable attitudes are every bit as damaging

Incidentally I know of a young adult with learning disabilities who was targeted in a city centre by teenagers last week (while she was with a carer). These things are increasing

But kids are erratic, even nt ones. They will do something for the first time that they've never done before and it'll happen so quickly you don't see it coming. So you apologise like hell, explain if you can to the child, and do everything you can to not let it happen again.
That doesn't sound much different to the op.

The carers weren't messing about on their phones letting the kids mess around unsupervised. There's no indication this has happened before. They apologised and the cafe treated it seriously by getting a first aider.

Unless we keep anyone under say 6 either in terms of bio age or development then accidents will happen and the way to deal with them is not screaming and shouting about how people like that shouldn't be in places where people like him go

The attitudes on this thread is where all the above starts. The ‘othering’ of disabled people, viewing distress as violence, viewing an accident as intentional. Not even making a tiny effort to understand.

That’s how it starts with fear and ignorance. I can guarantee if a two year old had launched the bottle people on here would be sucking lemons about supervision (probably unfairly if it was a one off), but they wouldn’t be suggesting the child should be kept away from others or might scald babies.

Well i’ve been hit a lot by disabled people - some a lot larger than me - and never felt the need to scream and shout abuse

and it's obviously not right to shout at kids and carry on like an idiot.

Still as a responsible person you would presumably feel that other people hadn't signed up for it and were wronged if they were hurt on your watch.

I would just not assume someone really wanted to purge the disabled or whatever because they were angry and unreasonable in this context. A little bit of understanding would have to be applied - yes it's wrong but it is honestly not their problem, they might not even properly understand this stuff and they have been randomly upset/hurt.

I mean apart from anything else if you are fully aware you are caring for a vulnerable person you are pre-armed with the knowledge there is nobody to blame. This is the context you are in already.

Its possible a random member of the public isn't, and maybe hasn't even thought of that. I agree people should be able to control their temper better than this, but I could well see someone saying things they didn't mean in the heat of the moment and wouldn't necessarily consider them a threat to others in the future because of it.

devilish the ‘evidence’ that they weren’t being supervised successfully is present in that the woman was hit by a bottle.

I guess there are very few toddlers who can be trusted not to throw things that could hit someone, but that’s exactly where parenting and supervision comes into play. I really don’t understand what is difficult about this concept.

I’m sure that your son (and the boys mentioned in the op) would never mean any deliberate harm, that’s not what I’m saying. Of course I don’t want to live in a society where people with disabilities are locked up and not allowed the freedoms of able-bodied people. All I’m saying is that if I was hit in the face in a cafe, I would be angry and wouldn’t be able to chalk it off as an accident. I would feel that more could’ve and should’ve been done to prevent such an incident.

Finally, where is your ‘evidence’ that this guy was a risk to the rest of society just for being angry that his wife had been injured?

the ‘evidence’ that they weren’t being supervised successfully is present in that the woman was hit by a bottle
It takes a second to grab and fling a bottle without aim. A second when their carer was putting something back in the bag, had sneezed, was sorting out their feed etc. I don't believe anyone takes their child or charge out for food and literally stares at them continuously without eyes straying and with one hand ready to stop them grabbing something. If they've reputation for throwing then yeah you keep throwables out the way but this may well have been the first time the child has even shown the ability to reach for a bottle and throw it depending on their disability.
These aren't kids left unsupervised, they're kids living in the real world where it only takes a split second and no parent or carer is that perfect that they can say it would never happen under their watch

What sleeping said.

The key problem is obviously that not only are carers human they lack both lightning reactions and the ability to mind read.

All this not being supervised properly.. the OP has said nothing to suggest this. If the child isn't a known thrower there would not be the requirement to keep items away (there will be now as risk assessment will be updated).

Caring in this context is so often thankless, a low wage role where quite often you come home with bruises, cuts and aches because you're supervising and deal with situations often being in the firing line when things do not go well. Yet day in and day out people go back to this role.

Let's be clear, the majority of carers do supervise correctly, because they don't want others or their care to be hurt. They also don't want to get hurt themselves yet it happens. People aren't in the job for the Money or for the perks, they do it because they care and they care to the best of their ability. Some of the best carers I know have had unfortunate incidents due to reasons such as sleepy suggested. I don't for one second doubt their supervision.

Yes there is a chance that the carers in this instance were not supervising and if that is the case they will be dealt with appropriately by the organisation they're working for. But it is unfair to assume that the only reason this could have possibly occurred is because of inadequate supervision.

Organisations that provide this sort of care are crying out for assistance, I suggest volunteering with them and seeing how challenging it is and how as I'm sure you'll all supervise correctly sometimes unfortunate incidents occur.

@whatsmynametoday

Brilliant post

Ittakes a second to grab and fling a bottle without aim. A second when their carer was putting something back in the bag, had sneezed, was sorting out their feed etc. I don't believe anyone takes their child or charge out for food and literally stares at them continuously without eyes straying and with one hand ready to stop them grabbing something

Yes that's the excuse a person responsible might have.

You're still the person responsible at the end of the day, though. It isn't the disabled person's fault, it isn't the public's fault. The duties and responsibilities, ie to ensure safety and ultimately the blame rest with the person being paid money to assume responsibility, otherwise what is the point in them doing so.

I expect the carers were effusive in their apologies and understanding of the anger at someone getting hurt, as responsible people would be.

amiciss absolutely that.

"I don't believe anyone takes their child or charge out for food and literally stares at them continuously without eyes straying and with one hand ready to stop them grabbing something."

It is impossible to do that in a 1:1 situation. Even in a 2:1 situation it requires an enormous amount of concentration and teamwork to get the "tagging" right, way beyond what most people would comprehend.
Even then you cannot stop them throwing their own cup and all you can do is minimise the potential problems - no glass, no open cups, no hot drinks, choosing a seat as far away from others as possible.

Only just seen this thread. He behaved horribly. I am amazed just how many people seem to be awkward and seem actually scared of disabled people, it seems to make people uncomfortable so they avoid. I think this was probably the case and the man overreacted.

It doesn't work like that. Society holds those with competence to responsible for their behaviour and, for those without competence, for reasons such as age, learning difficulties, mental health problems, etc, holds a person or group ('person in charge' or 'carer') responsible for them. There is no group of 'others' for whose actions no one is responsible. Thus the outcry and investigations when eg someone just released from a care situation pushes a menber of the public under a train.
I think I was being ambiguous, sorry. If you look at my post above yours, you can see we're on exactly the same page on that score.

I meant that as a reply to someone talking about not getting angry when you are the carer - I was saying that it's a completely different context for a random member of the public being hurt suddenly, to when you as a carer react.

I'm absolutely stunned at some of the comments on this thread. Accidents happen. Yes, it probably hurt. I've been hit, trodden on etc in the past, and yet I've never felt the urge to yell at anyone.

I'm absolutely stunned that anyone would think that his behaviour was OK (whatever the circumstances).

This man's behaviour and comments were not acceptable.

YANBU OP

Just to repeat: Bigotry is never an understandable response & if you think it is.... well then, you’re also a bigot & perhaps should take a good hard look at your own prejudices, because disabilities can happen to anyone & you’re NT children could one day have an accident that causes brain damage & one day you’ll be the one who’s being told your child shouldn’t be allowed places.

Mariatequila
thank you, I was trying to think of a polite post. but you said it brilliantly.

this thread is a disgrace. people defending a grown man , who by the op's account was very unpleasant to 2 young lads with disabilities.
you can pretend how you like, but there is never any excuse to behave the way he did.
i cannot understand why this thread has stayed.

Yes that's the excuse a person responsible might have. You're still the person responsible at the end of the day
Well it isn't an excuse, it's a perfectly rational explanation. And yes they're responsible so I agree with the first bit of what you say later...
I expect the carers were effusive in their apologies
But as for understanding of the anger at someone getting hurt, as responsible people would be. I don't think not expecting to be shouted and baled at and basically told your son kids shouldn't be allowed out around the normal people is something anyone should expect. It so happens that these kids were an with carers, they could just have easily been nt kids out with their nice middle class parents - I doubt very much they would be expected to anticipate and accept ranting and raving, swearing... shouting at full volume that the children "should be made to leave" and that "they don't belong here".

My evidence that middle age men who have problems controlling their temper are more of a danger to general society than learning disabled people - even those who show challenging behaviour - comes in the pages of any newspaper and in the records of any police department.

My son has had police investigations twice - in both cases HE was punched by carers. Both middle aged men presumably with a temper issue. I strongly suspect the carer was hungover in the second incident (where my son was punched in the face whilst in the back of a car).

Bottles can be thrown - even with exemplary supervision. If you don’t believe me go and work with someone who has ‘throwing’ in their repertoire.

It’s easy to be an expert when you’ve never done it.

Devilishpyjamas
My evidence that middle age men who have problems controlling their temper are more of a danger to general society than learning disabled people - even those who show challenging behaviour - comes in the pages of any newspaper and in the records of any police department.

Except that your representation of evidence in papers and police files is flawed, unless you are prepared the replace "middle aged men" with just "men"

Whatever - the point is that if we’re going to ban people on account of them being dangerous to others then statistically the person with problems controlling their temper is going to be more likely to do serious damage than someone with learning disabilities (even those with challenging behaviour) supported to access the community.

They’re actually far more likely to be victims. See winterbourne view, Somerset court, poor woman convered in flour, my son punched in the face etc etc. These people are actually extremely vulnerable. And far more likely to be hurt by someone without learning disabilities than they are to scald a baby

Devilishpyjamas

Apart from a few people on the thread, we agree with you.

I’d personally feel a lot safer around someone with learning disabilities and challenging behaviour than a man who can’t control his temper around disabled children.

The children were not assualted. Shouting at someone is not assault. But it could count as a hate crime, depending on the man's intent. He was put of order with what he shouted. very rude.

i hope his wife was ok though. poor lady. must have been painful.