AIBU to be worried about the normalisation of far right politics?

[Apileofballyhoo]

Just that really. I'm interested in what people consider to be far right and what people think causes it and what should be done about it.

I think it's caused by inequality and people feeling hopeless.

I'm far more interested in seeing if alliances against the Far Right are possible.

Thats an interesting question. I would like to think so but can also see where I would be problematic myself. For reasons I am not sure about I always seem to find arguments and debates about dealing with far right issues seem to started with something like "on some issues they have a point".

As a person married to a black migrant and now a migrant myself in another EU country I struggle to see what issues the far right have a point on. Because far right politics is based on lies, misinformation, playing on fears and stoking hatred. I would not know where to start to try and find common ground if the alliance against the far right was talking a starting point anywhere other than direct opposition.

a very polite apology.

An apology for not reading my earlier answer to her as an answer, yes.

But no clarification as to what she based her statements regarding my support for the far right on.

That's what I am actually interested in.

We have never really had much support for the far right in the UK actually . Even in the days of hte blackshirts people tended just to laugh at them. We certainly need to be vigilant against any far right or far left or extremists of any kind however.

I don't like suggestions that everyone who voted brexit is a racist (I voted remain) and that kind of thing however as it just encourages lumping people together who are perfectly normal 50% of the country.

Daisy

I've read all your posts now.

I came to my (possibly) misplaced interpretation of your position having gained an awareness of you as a poster who - primarily - attacks posters arguing against the normalisation of the Far Right.

If you read back through your posts, I think you'll see that is what you've mostly been posting.

Your positive post (as in where you state a position you actually hold, rather than countering a position [we must infer] you don't hold) is early on (where I think you state your position on Brexit and the Trans debate).

Surely you can see why I might have difficulty inferring your position correctly? If you only attack posters arguing against the Far Right, it does begin to look as though you might actually be endorsing Far Right opinions, if only negatively, and by omission.

I'm sorry if I misconcluded - and I'm appreciative you took the trouble to state your position.

Also, I want to state again, this isn't a thread about Brexit. The reason I discussed the DCMS report is because it is STILL the most serious, official report into the networks of influence that have subverted democracy in the UK. Some of the actors in that ARE associated with the normalisation of the Far Right in the IS. It's not a stretch to conclude those networks (of money, interest groups, ideology and technology) WILL be utilised to normalise the Far Right in the UK.

I am honestly not interested in alienating you. I am far more interested in building alliances, resistance, and gathering information.

"I don't like suggestions that everyone who voted brexit is a racist"

If I am honest do this except a lot I think its more xenophobia than racism. Immigration and border control was the first or second highest reason for people voting Brexit (Ashcroft or Ipsos Mori polls). The migrant crisis, with the adverts saying that Syrians are going to Turkey and Turkey is joining the EU very soon. If people are scared of other people fleeing war then do we say it was OK for the UK to turn away Jews fleeing Germany? Who is worthy for UK 'benevolence'?

Hate crime against EU citizens has risen since the vote. Why is that? EU workers are noting coming to the UK to even pick fruit and veg never mind work in the NHS etc. Why is that? (partly exchange rate changes but also EU citizens here leaving and tell people not to come). The Brexit vote was fueled by hate (see recent investigation into Leave.EU online advertising) in the public sphere. It is hard to look beyond that when thinking about why people voted to leave.

Daisy

I realise, reading my post back, I should have taken that 'possibly' out.

I meant it to refer to my methodology - which I think was sound.

I know you're going to take it as an indication that I don't take your statements in good faith.

So, to be abdutely clear: I take your statements in good faith.

Another (two) questions for Lang:

1.) As far as I'm aware, the aim of present UK law is to ensure equality before the law of all people.

You sound as though you believe this is not so, and that there isn't equality. Indeed, you sound as though developing that equality is a platform you would like to stand on.

Could you extrapolate? I'm curious as to what you think requires reform.

2.) You say you believe people should be disbarred entry to the UK on grounds of security risk.

I believe they already are!

We have GCHQ and MI6 (when they're not involved in trying to gain trade advantages ) working on that. And they're pretty good, actually.

So could you expand on this point, please?

your position having gained an awareness of you as a poster who - primarily - attacks posters arguing against the normalisation of the Far Right.

I have 'attacked' no one.

I do not challenge people based on their political positioning, but on their words.

I would just as quickly challenge a centrist as I would a far right or far left poster if I disagreed with them.

If you read back through your posts, I think you'll see that is what you've mostly been posting.

Untrue.
Most of my posts were challenging Helmet for her ascribing things to me that she'd made up.
Another cluster was challenging the incorrect use of 'collusion'.
A couple were challenging the anti-white Brit bigotry of another posts.
Another cluster were enquiring why you had made stuff up about me.

Surely you can see why I might have difficulty inferring your position correctly? If you only attack posters arguing against the Far Right, it does begin to look as though you might actually be endorsing Far Right opinions, if only negatively, and by omission.

If it is anti-far right posters that lie about my words, then it is anti-far right posters that I will challenge.
If a centrist had lied, I would equally challenge them.

I see no point in continuing this debate with you now tbh.
I respectfully ask you to stop making up things and claiming I have said them/inferred them.
Thank you.

Sorry, those questions were addressed to Leah.

So that's 3 questions in all.

The British Union of Facists was not defeated by people laughing. People took to the streets and fought them. Cable Street is not the only example it is just the most well known.

Mosley had significant support from the upper classes, including the royal family.

Do not underestimate these people.

I have a question for you: Do you think individuals and companies pay too much tax?

Difficult question. I see the benefits of taxation as I want school, hospitals, roads, social care etc. I object to the fact that the poorest frequently pay more of their income as a % of tax because things like VAT hit them disproportionately.

In theory, the idea that we should tax the income of the richest and have high company taxes sounds great. But when France, for example introduced punitive interest rates it raised almost no extra cash and resulted in a lot of French people becoming ex pats. Ditto companies because we live in a highly connected and mobile world where countries with high corporate tax see companies leave and operate just as efficiently from elsewhere.

So I don’t think it’s as simple as raise taxes. And I don’t know what the answer is. I do think that in some ways there are other contributing factors which are overlooked. For example France and Germany underpay their NATO contributions and spend more on healthcare. Which is all very nice, but who cares about having ones veruca removed in a timely fashion if said veruca is going to be incinerated by a Russian nuke anyway?

I would also be a hell of a lot happier about paying more tax if there was a root and branch reform of spending and an examination of vested interests in the civil service and public sector (and I say this as an ex employee of both - you can have Tesco Value digestives not Fortnums Pitstachio and bitter cream you grabby cunt Mr Speaker.

It would be lovely if it was a magic bullet but I don’t think it is and I don’t think anyone has figured one out for the modern, connected and mobile world yet.

LeahJack I have a problem with your implication that as a foreign national, I can't be part of a coherent community. If you were to meet me, you would not know that I wasn't British. I absolutely am part of the community I have lived in for 21 years now. And I have no time for people who come to the UK and don't learn English or participate in community life. That is a problem that does need to be addressed.

I am a remainer but the half of those who voted who voted brexit are not all racist by any means. Most aren't. Also not all those who are against too much immigration are racist either. It is very hard to generalise about Brexit voters. Certainly most of them are nothing like far right and plenty are Labour supporters.

Xenia I agree. I have friends who voted Leave and they are still friends. We're all adults and we can disagree on thing. Though some are now Bregretters...

I think UK governments have handled immigration very badly. Not keeping track of who was coming in, not using the brake on immigration from Eastern Europe in the way other EU countries did - all giant mistakes. Compounded by supporting a low wage economy propped up by in-work benefits. It's the manual for how not to run an economy and Labour and the Tories share the blame. When I came to the UK, I knew I had to find a job. My then fiance supported me financially, I claimed nothing. And yes, I did find work within 3 months at more than NMW. People do need to take responsibility for themselves.

At the same time the UK has changed and not in a good way. My UK born children have experienced xenophobic abuse at schools and that is unacceptable.

The reason people turned to the far right is simple. People who had any concerns about immigration were branded racist bigots, ignored and mocked. Some concerns about immigration are legitimate. Some concerns about immigration are outright nonsense. The problem is when people deny there are any issues with immigration others will cease to believe what you say. If you try to gloss over inconvenient facts, when you should be explaining how it fits in with the wider picture, or outright deny something that's as clear as day then you lose credibility.

A vacuum was created. Racist/Alt-right/Gammons/Incels (delete as applicable) are very good at exploiting this vacuum and once they've got their claws in people they can drip feed them their bile, drag them further to the right and entrench their views.

If there had been an open and honest debate about immigration about 15 years ago then a lot of this could have been avoided. Everything these days is far too polarised and toxic. What people need is honesty. Immigration is largely good, but the negative aspects need to openly acknowledged.

It's all well and good bemoaning the rise of far right and Brexit but they didn't create the vacuum that has been exploited.

If it wasn't for the awful eu experiment we would not be here.

It's a disaster just like every other attempt at closer ties in Europe has been since way back when.

The people do not want to be so closely joined.. Joined in some ways yes but they have gone far too far.

It's only this that has triggered a deep massive backlash. As well of course as trying to mix previously isolated places like Poland, Hungary, anywhere in the east with the rest of the eu. As we are seeing with the refugee crisis these countries do not want immigration... They want to emigrate sure but they don't want to let anyone else in. They are not used to such ebbs and flows...

If the leaders of the eu could just get over themselves and roll the whole damn experiment back... Right wing extremism and indeed left wing extremism would die down.

It's not just far right who exploited weakness though it's far left too.

MrsAidanTurner yep longest period of peace in Western Europe.

Total failure

The longest period of peace in Europe is down to lack of appetite for another all encompassing war.

After WW1 there was a 'lack of appetite' for a war.

Read some history.

I would think that nuclear arsenals guaranteeing MAD combined with NATO military cooperation contributed to peace a bit more than the European Coal and Steel Community / Common market / European Union.

It's like saying town twinning can beat war. It's a good thing in it's own right imo, no need to oversell the benefits.

War does not have to be nuclear. Look at the Balkans. Plenty of small acts of war can occur look at the last 1500 years of Western European history.

The French and German commitment to the EU is directly linked to 3 wars between 1870 - 1945. Obviously, other factors came in to play and were important but a desire to learn from the past was significant.

By linking economies together and building ties through trade it makes war a lot less likely one of the reasons the ESCC was formed in 1952. This kind of link would have been unthinkable in 1925 or 1877.