AIBU to be worried about the normalisation of far right politics?

[Apileofballyhoo]

Just that really. I'm interested in what people consider to be far right and what people think causes it and what should be done about it.

I think it's caused by inequality and people feeling hopeless.

Go on.

What is the stimulus of this 'global' lurch to the Far Right?

Heard first hand from someone I thought reasonably intelligent:

• a 'tsunami' of refugees around the world all dying to get to first world countries.
• Islam aiming to conquer Europe and Islam being always politically motivated
• need to build a wall (yes he loves trump, thinks he's the greatest pres of all time)
• send the army to defend borders
• repatriate all foreigners including those born here.

Whilst being a climate change denier, that person thinks 'the West' is facing an existential battle.

It's the rhetoric of threat that does it for weak minds, the one that gives a simplistic solution to complex problems... what amazes me though is the breadth of the population ready to adopt that rhetoric.

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/brexit-bill-will-give-ministers-power-to-exchange-trade-deals-for-rights/

I saw this on the Westministenders thread. As I understand it, long established equal rights no longer have protection.

Quietrebel
You also seem like a reasonably intelligent so I am somewhat surprised you don’t realise that there is a grain of truth in some of those statements.

Asylum:

Sorry, pressed too soon.

Pre Balkan wars in the 90s asylum was barely used. And it was envisioned as a mechanism by which those in extreme danger would be helped in the nearest place of safety. It has turned into a system whereby anybody can make a claim, in fact the entire populace of a country at war and one where a country of safety can practically selected from a shopping list. So in. WWII for example, the entire population of Germany (hardcore Nazis n all) could have merrily overrun England. Whilst all the British soldiers needed to defeat Hitler could have said sod that for a game of soldiers and buggered off to Canada.

It was a well meant but badly writttem law which is useless and unworkable in today’s highly mobile world. It needs re writing and reforming so that it assists those in most danger and need. This may mean increasing the number of refugees and spending more money on them and actively going out and seeking them. But it willmean that we return to the noble aims of the asylum system.

- Islam aiming to conquer Europe and Islam being always politically motivated

Islam is a complete holistic guide to life. It includes a political system (sharia).

Islam is a prosletyzing religion like most others. But Islam has been notably keener than other religions to use violence alongside preaching as a method of domination.

Islam aiming to conquer Europe and Islam being always politically motivated

Many Muslims view Spain in particular as stolen territory.

Crusades anyone?

They were more than a little aggressive, definitely religious, most of Europe were very keen on them.

LeahJack Do you suppprt the Far Right?

Don’t you mean ‘violent’ slander?

Nope, but I did use the term "violent lurch towards" in a way that didn't imply any literal violence happened. If you're going to try and be snarky, probably don't base it on your subnormal grasp of the English language.

How's repeatedly posting falsehoods about other poster's working out for you? Has the penny dropped, yet, that this is how you fail to make persuasive arguments?

It worked for the brexiteers, didn’t it.

Theresa May wanted to get rid of the human rights act and people describe her as centrist.

CatFromJapan, I would not say I was far right. I’m central right on most things and a little bit left on others.

For example migration, I am very pro migration for highskilled positions we genuinely can’t recruit for ourselves or because migrants provide a particular bit of knowledge we need. I’m also very strongly of the opinion that when migrants are needed they should come first from Commonwealth countries who contributed to the British Empire and IMO are more entitled to be here than those from the EU.

I think we should have a needs based migration system.

I think we should tightly controlled migration system so we know exactly who goes in and out and why and criminals are barred.

I want the asyum system reformed so the people getting asylum are those in ten greastest danger, have the largest need - not the richest and most physically able. I believe if we had an asylum system like that it would be much more popular and we could help more people.

I want zero tolerance for criminals involved in human trafficking, sex trafficking and drug production slavery.

I don’t want a migration policy that brings people first and worries about the migrants and poorer local people will be affected second. I want a joined up migration policy which thinks about where people are going to live and work and learn and be treated and have that all properly in place before they arrive.

And I do believe we have the right to make sensible risk assessments when deciding which migrants to take using logic like a Thai or Ecuador or Indian being much less likely to impose a risk. And perhaps the resulting social pressure on those who get a bit Bombay might make them less heroic and more annoying to their peers making it a less enthusiastic option.
I believe all British citizens have the same rights regardless of race and colour.
I believe migrants have the right to protection and legal treatment by our government during their stay regardless of race, religion etc, etc. But these also have legal boundaries.

I believe it is essential to discuss ghettoisation and failure to integrate on both sides of the coin. Especially when this means some women are denied their full rights. I think it is naive to ignore or suppress difficult facts like Islam’s history of violent conversion, prosletizing, slavery and dhimmitude. Although we don’t have to discuss it with hysteria or failure to recognise things have changed since the 12th century. But it IS always completely acceptable to say that there have been incidents like these taking place and we shout very loudly these ARE NOT COMPATIBLE WITH OUR CULTURE.

I have no issues with other aspects of culture like the jilbab or hijab or Burka which nobody has convinced me is dangerous or harmful.
I don’t think that makes me far right. I am sure many, many people would tell you it did.

That was supposed to say ‘a bit bomby’not a bit Bombay.

I think it is naive to ignore or suppress difficult facts like Islam’s history of violent conversion, prosletizing, slavery and dhimmitude. Although we don’t have to discuss it with hysteria or failure to recognise things have changed since the 12th century

I think it is naive to ignore or suppress difficult facts like Christianity's history of violent conversion, prosletizing, slavery and continuing misogynistic attitudes towards abortion and contraception. European Empire was also a time when most of the world was enslaved and financially and culturally raped for the continuing benefit of our society. Although we don't have to discuss it with hysteria or failure to recognise things have changed since the crusades.

We also need to remember we played a major part in creating the situation we are in.

I think it is naive to ignore or suppress difficult facts like Christianity's history of violent conversion, prosletizing, slavery and continuing misogynistic attitudes towards abortion and contraception. European Empire was also a time when most of the world was enslaved and financially and culturally raped for the continuing benefit of our society. Although we don't have to discuss it with hysteria or failure to recognise things have changed since the crusades.

Oh yes absolutely. But part of the problem is that the sort of things you’re describing there are mainstream, sanctioned and people are literally falling over themselves to discuss them. But it is extremely hard to discuss the opposite type of the coin.

And one thing that frequently isn’t discussed is that poor British people were often also part of the enslaved and suffered greatly. Yet know they are being told they benefitted and still do benefit from said empire and deserve punishment and inferior treatment to migrants when many were just as oppressed themselves.

"I think it's caused by inequality and people feeling hopeless."

Perhaps but then there is also the issue of people of weak mind being told that they should be angry at others for jobs not being available and that they should blame everyone apart from themselves and a select few political leaders who can lead them to the promised land. Or at least continue to believe the hate in the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson and Leave.EU (who are anti-Semitic). And then you get the left like Corbyn who feeds the idea that there are no well paying jobs because the low paying jobs are done by foreign workers. Which is logically inconsistent - see fruit picking as an example.

But where does this feebleness in British (White) people come from? Other white people are prepared to travel the length of the continent to improve their lives. Why are they not feeling helpless? Why do they see the inequality that surrounds them and then do something about it? (this is, of course, the immigrants who come to the UK, others just like to complain and kick the shit out of people that they can blame - see violence in Italy against the Roma since the new government came to power). What about the people fleeing war, famine, government corruption etc (the non-Whites basically). Why do they not sit at home feeling helpless. These people walked hundreds of miles to find a better live.

In the UK that seems to be an anathema. My concern about the rise of the right is that problems will not be solved with quick policy fixes. So there will still be people to blame because nothing is the fault of the mighty white Brits.

LeahJack how are British people being disadvantaged in the UK compared to migrants? Because all the stuff you read in the Mail about migrants jumping the queue for council housing is nonsense. It really is. Housing is allocated on a needs basis, not a nationality basis.

I'm a migrant. So you could say I 'stole' a British job. But I didn't offer to do my job for less, it was a normal competitive process and I got the job because I was the best. Do people in the UK really want companies and public sector employers not to employ the best staff but instead to take someone less skilled, less experienced and less qualified just because of their nationality? Obviously this doesn't apply to low paid unskilled labour, but if successive governments hadn't enthusiastically supported business' race to the bottom in terms of pay and conditions, we wouldn't be where we are now.

And one thing that frequently isn’t discussed is that poor British people were often also part of the enslaved and suffered greatly. Yet know they are being told they benefitted and still do benefit from said empire and deserve punishment and inferior treatment to migrants when many were just as oppressed themselves.

Interesting. Not a single part of that was correct.

When were poor Brits enslaved?
The poor Brits have always been exploited. Yet, and this is an important part, without the exploitation of other peoples, others lands etc, the poor in the UK would have been poorer and even more exploited. They werent at the bottom by a long shot.
They did benefit. The resources expended here, even to the poorest (say the introduction of the state pension or schools), came from those we exploited. But no-one benefited as much as the landowners and the rich.
No-one is arguing for anyone to be punished. But a recognition that the world order that is falling down is one we helped build. The resources that were raped and pillaged from around the globe supported the UK. Is it any wonder that people from around the globe look to the UK as a place to go. After all, their own history has us telling them how good we are and that we took their resources.

And who gets inferior treatment. Certainly EU migrants get comparable treatment but then if white Brits actually went abroad then they would get comparable treatment as well.

The "oppression" in the UK is nothing to how people are treated abroad. So the question is how do we react to that? By accident of birth it seems so many people dont care about other people as they are born too far away to care about. Which is sad really.

"there is also the issue of people of weak mind

But where does this feebleness in British (White) people come from?

nothing is the fault of the mighty white Brits."

How wonderfully sneery!
Are you like this in real life?!

For once I agree with you, Daisy - there's nothing inherently 'feeble' about disadvantaged British people. They just haven't had the equality of opportunity that people in other countries have had because after WW2, the British government chose not to use its massive Marshall aid package to create infrastructure for the future (which would have created jobs in industry and manufacturing and set a lot of people on a better path). Instead they threw the money away trying to hang on to the Empire they had already lost, choosing to attempt to recreate a lost past rather than preparing for the future. That mistake was made by the ruling classes of the time.

The same people are now still making money by perpetuating the huge divides in UK society. Only now they have social media and the internet to sow diversion and deflect blame away to those who are 'other' - refugees, immigrants, the EU. There isn't an easy solution because the once in a lifetime opportunity that the Marshall aid package offered was squandered.

Yet know they are being told they benefitted and still do benefit from said empire and deserve punishment and inferior treatment to migrants

Two point here to consider.

Yet know they are being told they benefitted and still do benefit

The industrial revolution that has in the long run made this country the economy it is today with all the associated wealth and benefits was funded by the slave trade. People are being told they have benefited because they did.

deserve punishment and inferior treatment to migrants

Absolute and total bollocks. We need to treat all human beings equally. No one should be treated in an inferior way to anyone else.

The poor have always been exploited by capitalism in the U.K. and around the world. You are making an argument for the 'international' - workers of the world unite! I agree this is not about nationalism it is about the rich exploiting the poor regardless of national boundaries.

To deny the legacy of empire is just foolish. Many of the systemic and intractable issues are a result of British and French (primarily but not exclusively) empire. The Balfour Agreement and the division of Africa in a hotel room in Paris are just two examples I could list many, many more.

As a grown up you look at past mistakes you have made in your life, own them and try to make amends. As a country we need to do this to help all the poor and dispossessed.

British people were often also part of the enslaved and suffered greatly

Yes they did which is where the Trade Union and the Labour movement came from. 100 years ago a group of men met in the Mechanics Institute in Manchester to form the TUC to free the workers and end the suffering. Can I assume you are a supporter of trade unionism LeahJack?

There is a clear difference between poor wages and working conditions and being enslaved Moussemoose.

And trade unionism has a long and proud history of ignoring women.