in thinking that democracy just isn't working...anywhere?

[ThisLadysNotForGurning]

Take the UK...seems to be in complete crisis over democracy, partly due to Brexit but also the whole first past the post system. So you get either Torys or Labour-and that's it. (And if the Liberals can't succeed against the others in the current situation, I can't see them ever doing it.)

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy. Or any country with PR- which seems like a bit of a bodge.
Or anywhere wih crap education-how can citizens actually make informed decisions if they are kept ignorant?

Is democracy actually possible?

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy.

If you're talking about the US, we're technically a constitutional republic, not a democracy. Switzerland is a direct democracy.

@steff13

No I meant India which lots of journalists seem to have branded as such.

Democracy is working just fine.

What isn’t working is a lot of very unhappy people.

Democracy working relies on people having the right information to allow them to make an informed vote
and on the people in power following through with what they promised to deliver.

@Hengine
yes. But do most people have the time or ability to have an informed vote and do most of hose in charge carry out their duties? I don't think so. And I'm not sure if it's possible.

Perhaps a benevolent dictatorship is better?

perhaps a benevolent dictatorship is better

And how is the dictator decided upon?

If you're talking about the US, we're technically a constitutional republic, not a democracy

Sorry, this really grinds my gears when people say this.

I believe people have the time, certainly if things were explained honestly and simply then it wouldn’t take as long to get informed.
The thing that takes time is trying to work out what’s actually true
Also I think if people were better engaged in politics in general then they would be better informed anyway
But then that doesn’t suit the ruling elite
I agree ‘democracy’ isn’t working by the way I’m not arguing against that. I just would rather the system was fixed rather than have a dictatorship

Sorry, this really grinds my gears when people say this.*

Can you elaborate? I never thought aboutit so genuinely interested.

The problem with brexit is that some (not all) brexiters didn't inform themselves (which is bloody stupid) and the remainers have a problem with losing a democratic vote. Which is very controlling. You'd seriously rather have a dictator so you have absolutely nothing to say over your own country than lose 1 vote?!? Why do you think that the dictator will do as you want him to?

Disclaimer: I'm in the EU so don't care that much how the vote went, your country, your decision.

the remainers have a problem with losing a democratic vote.

Talking of misinformation!

Remainers have a problem with our country going down the drain, not whether they won or lost a vote (which in reality, was a loss for everyone).

OP I agree with everything you've said, but you're unreasonable in thinking that we have a democracy at all. In reality all decisions are made according to how they will affect the elite - the Murdochs of this world - and with zero regard for the rest of us.

A big flaw in democracy is the average voter

So this thread is nothing to do with democracy, just another moan about ignorant people wanting to leave the EU?

A massive flaw in the UK's democracy is our "first past the post" electoral system, which is probably responsible for Brexiters being so fed up with the so-called elite/establishment. If we had PR then at least you wouldn't have to move to a safe or swing seat to feel that your vote "counted". I may disagree (violently) with UKIP, but it was ridiculous that they could garner millions of votes but no representation in Parliament.

Funny how the Tory Brexiters and Labour (who benefit the most from FPTP) don't seem to feel that reforming the electoral system we use would address this concern.

True democracy would work if everyone voted but sadly many don’t.

It's not perfect but it's the best system we have found so far.

Any system will be abused by some, and there will always be ignorant ill-informed people.

It's the best of a bad bunch. It's unlucky in that it gives the utterly stupid or impulsive the same amount of influence as somebody rational, intelligent and thoughtful but I cant really see how you can get around it.

Well thought out PR is probably the better option as FPTP just results in a huge number of disenchanted voters who either don't bother or only vote for the party they think will de-seat the ones they hate. I know I've been guilty of this.

I think democracies are better than the alternatives.

I think that FPTP at least usually leads to stable governments unlike e.g. Italy.

I think the best government we had recently was the coalition. But the Lib Dems got basted for it as their supporters focussed on the things the Tories did they didn't like rather than what the Lib Dems stopped or got introduced themselves.

Can you elaborate? I never thought aboutit so genuinely interested.

People saying that the US isn't a Democracy but rather a constitutional republic annoys me because they're not mutually exclusive categories. Same as the UK and Netherlands are Constitutional Monarchies AND democracies. It smacks of someone who is being pernickety but wrong.

It's the worst form of government. Except all the others that have been tried.

Not sure who said this, but I agree.

Perhaps a benevolent dictatorship is better?

But do most people have the time or ability to have an informed vote

A big flaw in democracy is the average voter

It's unlucky in that it gives the utterly stupid or impulsive the same amount of influence as somebody rational, intelligent and thoughtful

Statements like these utterly terrify me. And what makes them all the more terrifying is that they come from the left - the part of politics which traditionally represent the working classes, the poorest and the least education. It seems to be an increasingly common occurrence to hear leftists comment that the masses are too thick, too stupid, to uneducated to be able to take part in democracy properly. The left wing was set up precisely to fight that sort of thinking but now they espouse it themselves.

And no, someone who don’t agree with you aren’t automatic stupid, ill informed or getting the wrong sort of information. It’s perfectly possible for people to consume exactly the same information and reach entirely different conclusions.

Especially when you consider that there’s nowt thicker than a lefty arguing against universal suffrage of the poor and stupid without seeing the irony.

Democracy probably works best when you don't have groups actively working to undermine it.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill
I think he had it right.

The cornerstone of democracy rests on the foundation of an educated electorate Thomas Jefferson
The above is the key to democracy and too many people don't get educated on the issues.

LeahJack,you only have to watch Love Island or similar to realise that the thought of some people voting is what's truly terrifying.