in thinking that democracy just isn't working...anywhere?

[ThisLadysNotForGurning]

Take the UK...seems to be in complete crisis over democracy, partly due to Brexit but also the whole first past the post system. So you get either Torys or Labour-and that's it. (And if the Liberals can't succeed against the others in the current situation, I can't see them ever doing it.)

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy. Or any country with PR- which seems like a bit of a bodge.
Or anywhere wih crap education-how can citizens actually make informed decisions if they are kept ignorant?

Is democracy actually possible?

Just as an aside, I'm pretty happy with the government in my country (Ireland). Brexit is causing a bit of uncertainty but other than that, I'm happy. Idiots deserve to vote as much as anyone else unfortunately, it's just part of life.

These were ONS stats, pearls, published last week. If that's fake news, then I really do despair.

And maybe, just maybe, sterling was over valued before the referendum because the UK looked set to stay and it appeared a safer haven for capital than most of other options.

Some fascinating responses. Just read a couple of pages and wanted to clear up some things:
-yes I namechanged
-didn't particularly want a discussion on brexit...but on democracy
-I recently read 'Democracy in crisis' by AC Grayling (I think) which is what got me thinking
-my 'benevolent dictator' was tongue-in-cheek...although I honestly can't see how democracy could work well without a lot of effort from each and everyone one of us. Is that what we need?

I do think learning about our rights AND responsibilities as citizens should be compulsory at school.

Anyway, I'm off to rtft☺

@Dapplegrey well, ok so perhaps that’s an information overload. But I do think a test of some kind - or a check, or whatever- is something possible. I worked as a teacher in Scotland when independence was on the table- my 16 year old pupils had no clue of what was even on the table but were voting. There must be away to ensure voters are informed before counting their vote- I think it’s hugely damaging and distorting the game otherwise. Plus, it should force parties to hammer home their policies rather than a persona or a few key soundbites, and thus increase accountability too (less places to hide.)
If you still scoff, I don my hard hat
(Ps sorry I don’t know how to tag. Also I should be packing.)

-yes I namechanged

That's really interesting. Why?

Dapple, no, I mean that the moderate right wing permits all shades of opinion. Totalitarians, of left or right, tend to stifle debate by insisting that it's their line that must be followed, or you are a racist/fascist/hellbent on giving domineering plutocrats a free ride. None of which comes close to describing my political views. But the extremists here, who crash into every vaguely political discussion from left and right, are very keen to trash any alternative opinion.

I personally think what JC and the Labour did in the election was truly remarkable, they got the youth interested in politics, not only interested but they came out to vote in their thousands.

I don't like it because you're just spouting the party drum, not only that but you haven't updated the party line since the "youthquake" has been largely discredited now.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42747342

And a free, impartial and quality press is needed for democracy. The UK has the Scum and the Fail.

Yep, people who say they want a free press but then start complaining because some of the free press sometimes say things they don’t like. Definitely another set of numpties going straight in my ‘too thick to vote’ box.

I worked as a teacher in Scotland when independence was on the table- my 16 year old pupils had no clue of what was even on the table but were voting.

Or maybe quite sensibly the weren’t keen on sharing their voting preferences or reasoning with a nosey busybody teacher who was probably going to try and abuse their position by influencing them?

I can’t believe anybody bright and sensible would be stupid enough to share their voting preferences with someone in authority willingly.

Actually, I really mean that the centre is a broad church. I agree with some of the better thought through arguments on either side of the centre. My views are not committed; I can be swayed by good arguments, backed up by respectable statistical sources, on either side. I tend, just, to think the moderate right has slightly (only slightly, mind) more common sense but I am a big fan of some Labour politicians like Alan Johnston and Frank Field. If there were a serious centrist party, I would consider breaking the habit of 50 years, and joining it.

But the extremists here, who crash into every vaguely political discussion from left and right, are very keen to trash any alternative opinion.

Unfortunately that is the manner of online debate now, and has been pretty much all political debate since the beginning.

Everyone is just as guilty and there never really is any meeting in the middle as we have a situation where people will blindly vote along party lines regardless.

There must be away to ensure voters are informed before counting their vote

What, by insisting they read or listen to or watch what is deemed to be correct by whoever is in government at the time.

That’s called propaganda luv.

The Leave vote was split between Tory and Labour and non-party voters so the "sock it to the man" argument doesn't really make sense.

Labour people who hated Cameron voted for Remain. Tory voters who hated Corbyn voted for Leave and ensured Cameron was out and nearly led to the Torys losing power altogether.

People had their own very complex reasons for voting the way they did - whichever way they did.

Leah,, the UK also has the Times, the Guardian and the BBC, ITV and Sky news, who are all required to maintain a degree of impartiality. None of us can make people change media preferences.

To quote Dorothy Parker, "you can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think."

@LeahJack absolutely not what I said! I was only talking about what was on the table- not at all their voting preferences, which I absolutely would not question them about. A lot of assumptions in your post!
Just to derail the absolute assumption you made- I was neutral anyway.

Super
They used to do this for the blacks in the us

It’s called voter surpersion it’s a test that’s devised to allow only a certain type of person to be able to vote usally white and university educated because we know only their views count

Someone dosent need a test to under stand the impact a MP or policey impacts in thei community

Fake news like the bus and Boris Johnson that made a lot of dimwits vote for Brexit

Yes, because from the weeks and weeks of canvassing swathes of people just voted on that one bit of information.

I assume you’re left wing. It absolutely repulses me that the left wing has been reduced to tolerating opinions like this.

You’re exactly like a patrichal mill owner inthe 18th century who resisted universal suffrage because the masses were in their opinion thick, knuckle dragging droolers who were too stupid and easily led.

It really disgusts me that the left has abandoned its traditional base to cosy up to people who have exactly the values the left used to resist.

And also, no. I’m only talking about being informed about policies.

Thesearepearls

I wasn’t lied to thanks

Nighttime can you give an examp,e of the sort of questions you would like asked?
Do the constituents have to get 100% before they are allowed to vote?
Are you a remainer?

Democracy falls down when people go for "easy wins". Which change back and forth regularly, meaning that things which could be for the benefit of everyone in the long run never last long enough to have a real impact- they just change with the next election. Constant changes, no consistency, different people searching fir the next new vote winner. Not saying dictatorships or other models are necessarily the way forward- but a good dictatorship is better than an average democracy, which is better than an evil dictator!

Actually JC did bring out young voters.
The right and left, on the extremes are no different, sorry you get dictators from both, Stalin and Hitler, for example.
Also hate to upset the right off centre Dapple, just another and meetoo, but must of the truly horrible world leaders in recent history are right of centre and propped up by the Conservatives of the USA and UK. SO Chile, Argentina ( until it wanted the Falklands), Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Philippines. Then there is Cuba, Syria, eastern Bloc, to prove the extreme left.

The likes Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson and David Davis, care little for others views, any more then the hard left.

By the way J Corbyn, appealed to people, because unlike Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson and all other Tories, he went out and met true voters. He was even heckled, but had answer, according to Ds.
Unlike your bots, who arrive in an orange vest, spout a couple of soundbytes, take a planted question or too from the faithful, not answer the question from the media, jump into their bullet proof car and half half the police in England stopping traffic.
May as have a dictator, May and co are acting as one anyway.

A couple of days before the referendum, there was an op ed piece in the Times (my standard read each morning, except when something else arrives) with a major input from an EU functionary (I deduced Martin Selmayr) suggesting that only graduates votes should count.

This (perhaps irrationally) enraged me, because it would have disenfranchised my father and FIL (both commissioned officers and services pilots), my mother and MIL (SRN and SRCN qualified nurses) my sister, (a senior HR manager with a big 4 accountancy firm) and DH, who has built a successful engineering business... and not a degree between them.

Sorry, to be far, May and co are being truly British and returning us to our true roots. Absolute Monarchy, Henry the Eighth statues, in the Brexit bill of 2017.