in thinking that democracy just isn't working...anywhere?

[ThisLadysNotForGurning]

Take the UK...seems to be in complete crisis over democracy, partly due to Brexit but also the whole first past the post system. So you get either Torys or Labour-and that's it. (And if the Liberals can't succeed against the others in the current situation, I can't see them ever doing it.)

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy. Or any country with PR- which seems like a bit of a bodge.
Or anywhere wih crap education-how can citizens actually make informed decisions if they are kept ignorant?

Is democracy actually possible?

This is your first post on MN, ThisLadysNotForGurning.

Or did you namechange for this?

I'm interested in pop-up posters who post from a particular menu of ideas – that I happen to know coincide with the talking points of specific pressure groups (not "the left" in this case).

Anyway, my point is you can implement PR with no change to the way the public vote and no change to the idea that the candidate with the most votes becomes the constituency MP.

Actually socialism can work. In smaller countries with more rural populations and a lack of assets. Big countries turn very scary with it. And you don't want to try it anywhere with oil, gold, diamonds... Basically, if you are trying to manage poverty in small countries you might try it. As soon as there is a big cake, some bastard wants a bigger slice.

And a free, impartial and quality press is needed for democracy. The UK has the Scum and the Fail.

referenda are a problem with democracy - they're not very democratic, especially when pushed through by one party.

Seriously though, what's the alternative? Do you see some lovely benevolent dictators you'd like to shoe-horn into Britain?

referenda are a problem with democracy - they're not very democratic, especially when pushed through by one party.

Referenda for major constitutional change should have a supermajority. NOT a simple majority. Protects against the shit show/clusterfuck that is Brexit.

I certainly think FPTP needs to change, I live in a very safe Tory seat and don't vote Tory so my vote is wasted.

The system for the Scottish parliament could potentially be used across the UK.

In case you need supermajorities explained

I like Firesuit's suggestion!

And agree with Tortycat.

Someone suggested that I should become a politician (they clearly don't know me very well ) and I said no as one person can never make a difference in this country. That and I couldn't stand everyone hating me when I make an unpopular decision. As well as skeletons in the closest which would be highly embarrassing!

Right vote for change they believe in = Will of the People or sock it to the man (etc.)
Left vote for change they believe in = Virtue signaling.

Have I got that straight?

Have I got that straight?

No because your trying to bring brexit into a right/left issue ignoring the fact as to why it has torn Labour and Conservatives to shreds.

The virtue signalling is pretending you care about the less fortunate until they vote differently to oneself.

It came across loud and clear in the last 3 general elections and the referendum on MN.

So if I think that Brexit will most hurt the poor working class... that shows I'm an insincere git? Well who knew

How does that sit with the narrative that the 'elite' are always fine, no matter what?

totally 100% agree mrspratchett and cross party implementation should be a must. And the same for indyref...people vote for a dream that someone has peddled and what'll actually get delivered...

Britain had proper democracy, from approx. 1945 to 1979, when the two main parties, won every other general election. There wasn't time for the idiots to ruin us.
But since 1979, we may well have had a benevolent dictator, because we had near 40 years of right of centre government base on Thaterite ideals. Even Tony Blair was a Tory with a red rosette.

Basically the true WC, have been shit upon from a great height since 1979, and true WC areas are no longer attractive, and that is what as lead to Brexit, you have had millions abandoned for 37 years.

I personally think what JC and the Labour did in the election was truly remarkable, they got the youth interested in politics, not only interested but they came out to vote in their thousands.
Why, I know Meetoodear and justanotherlurker, won't like this, because they went out and spoke to the masses, yes people in market places, shops, on steps of buses, He was truly amazing to listen to my wife and Ds both came home from a chance meeting raving about his views. DW and I voted Labour for the first time, usually Lib Dem voters, Ds too young.

Finally democracy, is failing in the Uk, anywhere where less than 65% vote for your in National elections and often less than 25% in any other form, isn't a democracy, in it's true sense.

JC has asked some relevant questions but I don't think JC did anything remarkable - he offered young people going to university a massive amount of money. That's not new politics. He didn't offer much to the 50% not going to university.

Brexit has undermined my faith in democracy

I think people were lied to on a massive scale and they bought the lies, the bus, the £350m a week/year whatever it was for the NHS

The reality is that the UK is losing jobs hand over fist as a result of Brexit. The electorate in Sunderland needs its collective head looking at. Where do you think Nissan is going to go Sunderland? Because they aren't long term staying now.

Still, Sunderland numpties and all, we haven't got any better ideas about how to run the country than democracy. Let's stick with it

Sorry, one last point. As a true working class lad, 1st generation not born in either a council estate or a privately owned slum, from a wood working machinist and cleaner parents, who has milked cows and still does manually work, and married to a wife with the same background, both had FSM for secondary school.
I find it highly offensive that the likes Leahjack, Meetoodear and many others always presume the comments about uneducated, xenophobic, racist are aimed at us
FFS grow up, some of the most narrow minded, xenophobic and outwardly racist people I meet or have met are right of centre voting MC and UC.

Unions and working people have often been at the fore front of non Uk citizens rights, because they tend to end up doing the same jobs and living the same communities as us.

Britain is sadly more divided than ever, we need a government, from which ever party, I honestly don't care, who put US first, not itself, sadly it isn't going to happen.
When the extremes are in charge good help us and they are, Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson and the likes of Dennis Skinner, John Mann all voting the same way, surely tells right minded voter, its time to pause and rethink.

Everanewbie's quotation is Churchill, who also made a tart comment about the intelligence of the electorate, which incensed a clever Y10 citizenship class. Going back to RFT.

I’ve always thought we should have to pass a test before we vote. Just a simple, do you know the policies of the parties available. And not a once-for-all test- a test each time there’s something to vote on. Computerisation and multiple choice should make it pretty straightforward.

Still haven't RFT, and still intending to, but have been reading a novel, by a Guardian journalist, which offered the thought (not in these words) that only the right encourages free speech and expression, because the left wingers always know best.

My personal view, not that it's worth any more than anyone else's, is that we elect the governments that we deserve. And recently, the UK hasn't done well, but then nor have most countries covered themselves in glory.

Nighttime so In order to be entitled to vote every constituent would have to know everything that is in the manifestos of every party?
Good luck with that.

Xingming do you mean countries who have elected a right wing leader haven't covered themselves in glory?
Did you think we covered ourselves in glory when we elected Tony Blair?

Thesearepearls, the UK currently has the lowest rate of unemployment since the 1970s and is sucking in workers from across the world to plug the gaps. There isn't any loss of employment as of today.

We get the democracy we deserve.

How many people have said:

• politics is boring
• all politicians are the same
• I can't be bothered to listen anymore
• I don't vote for him because he looks funny
• I turn off the news.

I hear this all the time. The level of ignorance about the system we live in is staggering. Brexit has simply highlighted the vast knowledge gap. If I hear someone say 'ignoring the referendum is against democracy' once more I think I should be allowed to shoot them.

Educate yourself, listen to debates, engage, pay attention and then vote with consideration. Vote for policies not personalities. Don't blame others for the state of our democracy get involved.

No, Dapple, I made no judgement.

That's not actually true XingMing. Most of my clients have been forced into planning for a hard Brexit scenario. Most of them have relocated a portion of their talent offshore as they need to do to comply with EU regulations - the life sciences businesses, the chemicals businesses, the financial services businesses - all have enhanced their EU hubs at the expense of UK plc.

The one big thing that undermines democracy is fake news. Fake news like the bus and Boris Johnson that made a lot of dimwits vote for Brexit. Brexit is costing the UK economy big time. If you doubt that, just look at what has happened to sterling. It has tanked. You're only just beginning to realise the consequences. Maybe you realise that holidaying abroad is much more expensive. That's just the start