in thinking that democracy just isn't working...anywhere?

[ThisLadysNotForGurning]

Take the UK...seems to be in complete crisis over democracy, partly due to Brexit but also the whole first past the post system. So you get either Torys or Labour-and that's it. (And if the Liberals can't succeed against the others in the current situation, I can't see them ever doing it.)

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy. Or any country with PR- which seems like a bit of a bodge.
Or anywhere wih crap education-how can citizens actually make informed decisions if they are kept ignorant?

Is democracy actually possible?

May as have a dictator, May and co are acting as one anyway.

I don't think anyone who lived under a dictators such as Hitler and Stalin or even Maduro, would agree that May is a dictator.

absolutely not what I said! I was only talking about what was on the table- not at all their voting preferences, which I absolutely would not question them about. A lot of assumptions in your post!
Just to derail the absolute assumption you made- I was neutral anyway.

Anybody who claims that they are ‘neutral’ in a situation like that is absolutely not to be trusted.

Anybody honest would admit in such a situation they would whether willingly or not be influenced by their own experiences and inherent bias when discussing things like this.

Which is why it is totally inappropriate for teachers in positions of authority to be even asking pupils on their opinions on political matters.

You should watch ‘The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie’. Great film.

@annoyedofnorwich

'Constant changes, no consistency, different people searching fir the next new vote winner.'

Yes it often seems like that to me also. Perhaps a solution is having areas such as transport/health/education managed by either the civil service or by cross party committee.

That would hopefully allow more long term planning and less knee jerk behaviour. Unfortunately it's not a very democratic solution😊

WTF?

LeahJack Wed 25-Jul-18 20:44:37
Definitely another set of numpties going straight in my ‘too thick to vote’ box.

LeahJack Wed 25-Jul-18 20:57:20
You’re exactly like a patrichal mill owner inthe 18th century who resisted universal suffrage because the masses were in their opinion thick, knuckle dragging droolers who were too stupid and easily led.

I have also heard the "graduates" only should vote and was furious. It is so stupid.

So the voters who elect the leaders can choose policies that are self-serving and the guys who drive their trains, and mind their kids and serve them in shops and clean their offices and houses - well they can just get on with it and shut up can't they.

Actually JC did bring out young voters.

But he didn't....

By the way J Corbyn, appealed to people, because unlike Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson and all other Tories, he went out and met true voters.

You mean he went on political rallies in the run up to a general election, well what a novel idea....

Did he go to Labour strongholds and a few potential swing seats with active supporters for his party there to great him and ask questions, a bit like every other politician has done for quite a while now if I'm not mistaken.

Unlike your bots,

You have no idea how I voted, nor how I voted in the past.

who arrive in an orange vest, spout a couple of soundbytes, take a planted question or too from the faithful, not answer the question from the media

I cannot believe you have unironically typed that as being not applicable to Corbyn..

@dapplegrey I don’t off the top of my head, but I really mean just a written policy and a kind of ‘who’s policy is this’ with multiple choice or something. Perhaps only taking the key points from the relevant manifestos. I don’t think 100 percent would be necessary, but if someone failed it they would have the opportunity to retake. The purpose wouldn’t be to elimate voters, just to ensure they know what they’re voting for. Does that make sense? Obviously it’s not an entirely thought through plan but I feel like there’s a glint there.
I’m not a remainer. But I’m not a staunch brexiteer and I wouldn’t have been gutted to lose the vote.

Democracy keeps the masses quiet under the pretence it is giving us all the power when in fact it isn’t in any way. Parties/people are voted in by significantly less than 50% of the population. They then basically have a mandate to do whatever they want whether it is in line with what they promised or not (and people will often vote them in on a particular issue without agreeing with all the other stuff). If anyone disagrees then we all chant “well if you didn’t agree you shouldn’t have voted for it” or “it is the will of the majority, just because you don’t agree” or “if everyone voted it would be different” People don’t revolt because it is “our fault” when things don’t work out.

Voter suppression is a strategy to influence the outcome of an election by discouraging or preventing specific groups of people from voting.

We have almost as little power as in an absolute monarchy but labour under the misapprehension that we have so much more so we don’t have a revolution

@leahjack I did not and would not ask pupils opinions.

@mrbob ahh, but what's the solution?

Nighttimenope

Nope just voter suppression no point of the test if their is no pass or fail and I wonder what groups would end up getting most effected by this test

I wonder shall we have a think

Perhaps a benevolent dictatorship is better?

Chilling words...

Itinerary

Perhaps a benevolent dictatorship is better?

Chilling words...
jermery Corbyn

Sorry, to be far, May and co are being truly British and returning us to our true roots. Absolute Monarchy, Henry the Eighth statues, in the Brexit bill of 2017.

64% of labour constituents voted for leave, JC himself ordered a 3 line whip to push through Art. 50, JC has a long voting history of voting against further EU integration and voting for EU referendums, but yeah, its just a Tory issue again...

And to add its widely though JC vited to leave

He also refused to help Dave at the time convince people to remain

I have also heard the "graduates" only should vote and was furious. It is so stupid.

Painted I entirely agree with you.

Until this thread I had twice read comments on mn which said that only the well educated should vote - one poster, Bearbehind, actually started a thread about it - and both the comments were by remainers on anti Brexit threads.
I expected there to be a furious response but no one really objected so maybe a lot of people secretly agree.
Otoh had the only-the-educated-should-vote comments been from leavers I think the response would have been more robust.

I assume you’re left wing. It absolutely repulses me that the left wing has been reduced to tolerating opinions like this

What an assumption! An assumption borne out of your particular prejudices.

Nope I'm an accountant. It's virtually impossible for an accountant to be left wing because invariably, inveteredly, incurably, any accountant would want the sums to add up.

There are a lot of people on this thread who I sense do not have a lot to do with business. If you had anything whatsover to do with business you would be an awful lot more nervous than you are now.

There’s the famous Churchill quote about democracy being the worst system except for all the others. Not sure I’d go that far but it’s at the very least no worse than the others.

Course it depends what you value. Democracy’s big selling point is that transitions between governments, ideologies and administrations are generally peaceful. If you value unwavering commitment to a cause to the point of death and consider death in battle a great honour democracy leaves a lot to be desired compared to other systems. If you just want a quiet life it’s got a lot going for it.

The thing is Dapple is most Tory voters are happy with their decision and every 4 years just come out to vote then go back to their lives..

The Left on the other hand, rant and shout and beat their chests, they taunt and ridicule and jeer the opposition (as in the post you mention). There's no need to come on and argue with them, who wants to waste their time and breath? What does it achieve?

DieAntword

Shall we give Isis a go then?

Or possibly the Saudi system

I agree, it's obvious rubbish to even suggest only graduates should vote. So much wrong with it, I can't be bothered to list all the reasons. And IIRC, I have objected to this before, to Leaver or Remain.

BTW I'm not sure how XingMing is simultaneously quoting that well-known leftist publication The Times in suggesting only graduates should vote, while trying to characterise a "we know best" attitude as left wing. It's fairly prominent feature of old school Toryism.

This is interesting - as so much on MN can be. And I should be doing other stuff.

You will always get self interest, power plays, alliances and extremists in any group. You need checks and balances to prevent that. Something like removal of press freedom, or not allowing certain groups to participate in the process means there are no checks and balances.

Then it's dangerous.

Brnovelant dictatorship? Fuck of you twat. All I want is freedom, even if it difficult. Three gensratuons of my family were slaves to a benovelant dictatorship (a bit of an oxymoron but whatever) . I categorically will never put myself or my defendants in the position where we will be slaves again.