in thinking that democracy just isn't working...anywhere?

[ThisLadysNotForGurning]

Take the UK...seems to be in complete crisis over democracy, partly due to Brexit but also the whole first past the post system. So you get either Torys or Labour-and that's it. (And if the Liberals can't succeed against the others in the current situation, I can't see them ever doing it.)

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy. Or any country with PR- which seems like a bit of a bodge.
Or anywhere wih crap education-how can citizens actually make informed decisions if they are kept ignorant?

Is democracy actually possible?

I don’t off the top of my head, but I really mean just a written policy and a kind of ‘who’s policy is this’ with multiple choice or something

There was a website that was passed around during the past couple of elections, vote for policies or something.

What shocked quite a few on MN was how many of UKIP's policies they had agreed with. So there would be quite a few who would have failed that multi choice non test

@Metoodear I’m happy with a quiet life tbh.

Teenage me would probably have said something different. I’m one of those people who knows full well had I been born to a different ethnic group about a decade later I probably would have been running off to ISIS like an idiot (and then freaking out and trying to escape no doubt!) Like I said... depends what you value. Thankfully I was born white British and got out my rebelliousness in slightly less socially unacceptable ways.

One of the problems with today's democracy is the name calling and spite. No one dislikes the Tory party more than me, but the childish name calling both sides indulge in is getting extreme and personal.

I say this as a student of history - division and vitriol go hand in hand with politics but in the U.K. and USA it used to be based on policy rather than personality.

I dislike the politics of the Tory party but not individual tories. If you look at the name calling already starting on this thread you realise where the issues are arising.

metoodear pop over to the Saudi thread lots of people seemed thrilled with it and objected to me pointing out they publicly execute children. People will put up with a lot for a big pile of cash....

It's working quite fine here in Australia. New Zealand, too.

I don't know much about politics in either Australia or New Zealand but it seems the toxic populism hasn't reached there yet. Let's hope you manage to avoid it.

name calling and spite.

Mousse - You've been pretty rude and vitriolic to that person who lives in Saudi Arabia.
Is our society so great? Fortunately we don't behead people but pensioners get burgled and beaten up and robbed and a 3 year old had acid thrown in his face.
Every single day there's another report of a knife murder. Mugging are so common the police barely take details let alone try and catch the offender.

OP I kinda agree, I dream of a Libertarian country with no government.

Mousse do you think any non socialist government is 'toxic'?

Justanotherlurker, and even knowing the manifesto promises of each party/side, doesn't translate into knowing whether the party/side will fulfil those promises.

It also doesn't translate into knowing those intentions of a party, which the party doesn't put in the manifesto for public consumption...

Particularly true for parties with little track record in power, which can get away with promising anything.

Dapplegrey
I wasn't personal at all. I asked questions about a living in a society that publicly executes children! It also tortures people in public. I hope the questions I politely asked were uncomfortable. That is not toxic.

We are talking about democracy and you are comparing the U.K. to Saudi implying they might have advantages to the Saudi system. I find that errrr 'outrageous'.

Is any non socialist government not toxic? Yep loads. If you look at post war politics in the U.K. it is usually referred to as 'consensus politics'. For example the Tory governments in the 1950s I can see how I would make different decisions but they were not toxic. Same with the USA I fundamentally disagreed with Reagan on nearly everything but his government was not toxic in the way Trump's administration is.

Our PM at the moment, I don't agree with her, but she is not toxic in the way BJ and Farage are.

Where did I claim that Saudi society had advantages over U.K.?
I said I don't think the uk with its appalling crime rate and children and pensioners suffering assaults is exactly a model society.
Maybe you think it's all perfect here.

You called the op on the Saudi thread morally repugnant. I think that's extremely rude.

What is your definition of toxic?

I worked in Saudi for a month this year

Bit of a drag having to wear an abaya all the time. Bit of a drag not being able to go to the gym (men only). Bit of a drag not being able to swim in the pool (men only). Bit of a drag not being able to go out for dinner without a chap escorting me. It was great not being able to drive because the driving is the worst I've ever seen in the world (see what happens when you don't let women drive?).

Thankfully I was able to leave quite shortly. I would never choose to live in such a place and anyone suggesting living in a regime like Saudi Arabia needs a mental health check up pretty quickly.

Actually JC did bring out young voters
Is that a joke? JC did something 1000 times worse than a big red bus. He actually lied about cancelling all student debt. That was outrageous, no wonder he brought out young voters. Not sure they will fall for the same lie twice!

do you think any non socialist government is 'toxic'?

All socialist governments are

Dapplegrey
Can I ask you do you think a left of centre, a true one, like the ones in Europe can be good for the country. Ie non toxic.
I also thought you that you meant Saudi Arabia was better then us too
Maybe moussemouse is right, I think anybody who takes money off a regime like Saudi Arabia, and isn't from a third world country, trying to improve themselves, has a lower moral standing than most people I know, I couldn't accept Saudi laws sorry.

Walkingdeadfangirl
Why should my child end up with debts of £27750, for tuition and £12360 for maintenance, so £40110, when he will the first in his family to go to university.
But multi millionaire Politian's, like Blair, Cameron and Osbourne and Clegg all got it for free.
Oh I forgot, free market is best, yeah.
Bollocks by the way, we are a mix economy, always will be, unless you want to get ride of the NHS and state education, but many on this thread certainly don't give two hoots for state education.

User147
I'm sure a left of centre government would be absolutely fine. I wouldn't vote for it but if such a government was voted in here I wouldn't leave the country either.
Would you visit - or rather, would you have visited Cuba?

Which country are you thinking of with a “left of centre” government in Europe?

redneck
Two of the most toxic governments I can think of, where both Conservative and Unionist, A) 1992 and John Major and B)2017 T May, Christ both had ministers and back benchers fighting and shagging too.
All over Europe, neither did and are doing much for the uk.
Also the right wing finance reforms of your non socialist friends lead to the 2008 crash, and it was firmly right of centre parties in power for the 1930 crash. I think both where truly TOXIC
Oh well proves both sides are shit and toxic to the other side doesn't

user1471450935, Because he wouldn't be able to do it without destroying the country. Even JC admitted after the election it was impossible to afford. And yet here you are still believing the lies.

Dapplegrey
No never been to Cuba, friends have.
They are communist, so not socialist. That's like me saying have you been to Argentina or Chile, as they are right wing.

DIE
Sorry but pretty sure France and many Scandinavian countries have had left of centre (socialist governments recently)

Look it late and this argument is silly acutally.
Because 75% of the Uk population are pretty much in the centre, and neither the Labour or Conservative & Unionist party are truly Socialist or Right wing.
Most of my inlaws, except my wife are Conservative voters, we are the communists, but actually apart from using state schools, and strongly supporting them, and in an ideal world banning them, they would agree, what we want is what they want. Just I would do it with progressive tax and they like lower taxes.
I want a successful UK, I have a 18 and 15 DC who depend on it.
I just disagree with the way this government has treated the poor, disabled and education. I do believe Theresa May is trying her best on the NHS and is in a god awful place with Brexit.
I sometimes even feel sorry for her.
By the way if Sarah Wooleston became PM, I may even consider voting for her.
Is their any Left of centre Mp any of you like.
I also like Andrew Percy, Greg Clark and Justine Greening
Go on I dare you do the same with labour mps

Walking
He actually promised to abolish student fees if in government. If you read the manifesto, and not listen to the Tory press, that would have been for either Sept 17 or Sept 18 students. So free education for them.
Then when asked about existing debt, they said they would look at that in government. They agree if was difficult to write off existing debt.
But Labour's promise was to abolish new debts sorry but you fell head first into Tory lies and media bullshit. Because we read their promise, because it would have affect Ds1.
Funny how even your beloved Tories are reviewing student debt though.

@user1471450935

I agree totally with you.

'Destroying the country' is the kind of hyperbole that helps no one.

Left of centre governments as were common in the Scandinavian countries since WW2 do not 'destroy' countries. You might not like the tax system but the countries are quite obviously not destroyed.

Dapplegrey do you really think children and old people are assaulted in Saudi? Let me assure you they are, in fact some children are executed in public. I can't recall but if i said the regime and people who support it, by visiting or working there are morally repugnant I don't think I was being vile. I think I would be able to use fact based argument to support that point of view. By attempting moral equivalence - they do that - oh but we do this - is lending support. Implying Saudi is safer does suggest advantages.

The point being it is not a democracy and has no equivalence.

All socialist governments are

Completely depends how you define socialism. You can have a Marxist-Leninist definition which is generally toxic. Then you can use the nonsense that the NHS is a form of socialism.