in thinking that democracy just isn't working...anywhere?

[ThisLadysNotForGurning]

Take the UK...seems to be in complete crisis over democracy, partly due to Brexit but also the whole first past the post system. So you get either Torys or Labour-and that's it. (And if the Liberals can't succeed against the others in the current situation, I can't see them ever doing it.)

Or how about 'The world's greatest democracy'? Which really isn't much of a democracy. Or any country with PR- which seems like a bit of a bodge.
Or anywhere wih crap education-how can citizens actually make informed decisions if they are kept ignorant?

Is democracy actually possible?

Jefferson was a slave owner and I suspect that argument was one he used against the idea of slaves ever getting the vote.

Otherwise, the usual snobbery. Only uninformed people don't vote the left/liberal way? After the struggles of female emancipation, women now want to restrict the franchise? Get a grip.

And I'd bet the average leave voter was just as informed as the average remain voter, even if fewer of them had hobby degrees from former Polytechnics.

There are so many different types of democracy, that it would be impossible to say. Britain and America are not the only countries in the world.

Democracy is undermined by wealthy individuals who use media, campaigns and other tools to promote their own personal views masquerading as popular discourse.

You need unassuming people to "buy" into this. I would never call these people stupid, rather gullible.

*Talking of misinformation!

Remainers have a problem with our country going down the drain, not whether they won or lost a vote (which in reality, was a loss for everyone).*

You're still in the EU so if the country is going down the drain now how is leaving the EU the reason? If it is because you are scared well that's your own doing then. You don't know yet how brexit will effect you exactly.

Although I have to agree that I find it very concerning that your country isn't making any deals. But we will have to see what the future will bring.

You don't know yet how brexit will effect you exactly.

The governments own impact assessments suggest any form of brexit will leave the country worse off. Hard Brexit means 8% loss of GDP and 2.7 million jobs gone.

Oh goody Ghost is here to tell all leavers how "thick , racist , xenophobic , old , ill educated and stupid we are.

Did you not get the how we want you to vote thing before the Brexit vote.
Every household got one... So if people will allowed to vote how they wanted and a record number voted, how can you say it was a failure.

Oh goody Ghost is here to tell all leavers how "thick , racist , xenophobic , old , ill educated and stupid we are.

Can you point me to where I said any of those things please? Given we are on the cusp of stockpiling food, medicine and blood I'd question how much thinking leave voters did before putting an x in a certain box.

Every single thread that even mentions Brexit you turn up on, is there an alarm in remoaner HQ.

I'm an entitled to post in whatever thread I like. If you can't handle the truth that is your problem.

I agree, OP. I have a lot of thoughts about this but am not able to put them into words.

A massive flaw in the UK's democracy is our "first past the post" electoral system, which is probably responsible for Brexiters being so fed up with the so-called elite/establishment. If we had PR then at least you wouldn't have to move to a safe or swing seat to feel that your vote "counted". I may disagree (violently) with UKIP, but it was ridiculous that they could garner millions of votes but no representation in Parliament.

... I think this sums up my thoughts quite well. Except I'm not very clued up on politics, please could someone tell me what PR means? And also the US one mentioned upthread?

Before Ghost takes over the thread with everyone who didn't vote their way was misled by propaganda, not thinking, and the faux "can any leavers answer"..

Democracy is working, the situation is becoming more divided due in no small part due to the internet which has made people more tribal, ,more vocal and not accepting any shades of grey in any argument.

The Internet is like Socialism, great in theory, just turns to shit when you add humans.

Democracy is undermined by wealthy individuals who use media, campaigns and other tools to promote their own personal views masquerading as popular discourse.

Absolutely. And their main weapon of choice is using the media to perpetuate hashtag activism which, under the guise of 'solidarity', polarizes/marginalises people. Divide and conquer. Keep the people angry, tilting at windmills, by means of lazy, keyboard, hashtag activism which accomplishes nothing but distracts everyone from much more pertinent issues.

Don't get me wrong: Black lives absolutely do matter. Sexual harassment absolutely does matter. The issues matter. All of them matter. All of us matter. The hashtag activism doesn't matter. It's not meant to bring about change.

Except I'm not very clued up on politics, please could someone tell me what PR means?

Proportional representation. Which means that smaller parties who get a decent chunk of say 16% of the vote in each and every constituency would get a 'proportional representation' of that in Westminster. Insead of the curretn system where they would get zero.

FPTP which we have tends towards stabler governments, fewer coalitions, two-party (rarely three) systems and less left and right wing parties. PR gives 'fairer' representation but more fascists, communists and greens. Less stable governments, more coalitions, which frequently fail leading to more elections (Italy has averaged about one a year as far as I know), very dodgy parties getting more power and weird voting blocks (so the Christian right and the fascists could agree to block abortion rights for example).

There is no perfect system! BTW benign dictatorships tend to be far more populist in their policies. For fairly obvious reasons.

Oh, I was too late...

Sorry Italy has averaged one Prime Minister a year NOT election. Hyperbole is my friend.

continuallychargingmyphone

Democracy is working just fine.

What isn’t working is a lot of very unhappy people.
Amen what the op means is the liberals are no longer getting their way so their now trying to say as usual demrocy is not working or we didn’t get the truth or were all to I’ll educated to know what’s really good for us

When you have a virtual signalling left
That ignores its poor for others

It’s intolrant of any other view than the mandated dated one

Indulges in champagne soclislm

This is what you get

The answer my friend is for the left to move to the center and stop identity politics and virtual signaling at every given moment also

TheVanguardSix

Democracy is undermined by wealthy individuals who use media, campaigns and other tools to promote their own personal views masquerading as popular discourse.

Absolutely. And their main weapon of choice is using the media to perpetuate hashtag activism which, under the guise of 'solidarity', polarizes/marginalises people. Divide and conquer. Keep the people angry, tilting at windmills, by means of lazy, keyboard, hashtag activism which accomplishes nothing but distracts everyone from much more pertinent issues.

This

The Internet is like Socialism, great in theory, just turns to shit when you add humans

According to Brexit voters Tory rule was shit so they voted to sock it to "the man" by voting leave. How is that going?

I see somebody mentioned virtue signalling. Nearly a right wing full house!

GhostofFrankGrimes

The Internet is like Socialism, great in theory, just turns to shit when you add humans

According to Brexit voters Tory rule was shit so they voted to sock it to "the man" by voting leave. How is that going?

I see somebody mentioned virtue signalling. Nearly a right wing full house!
How’s being a fully paid up member to the eu Garvey boat working for 🇬🇷

Greece

Thank you, MrsTerryPratchett

GhostofFrankGrimes

The Internet is like Socialism, great in theory, just turns to shit when you add humans

According to Brexit voters Tory rule was shit so they voted to sock it to "the man" by voting leave. How is that going?

I see somebody mentioned virtue signalling. Nearly a right wing full house!

Sour grapes TM is shit and Corbyn Moët still can’t fjcking win

JC is a rasict he did the numbers and thought fuck the Jews theirs not enough of them

I don’t belive TM is a rasict and she hasn’t sent her fucking kids to a grammer while railing against them

She hasn’t promoted people she has fucked

And fucking your way to a job is not a good look

If we had PR then at least you wouldn't have to move to a safe or swing seat to feel that your vote "counted".

It wouldn't take much to fix this. The minimal change is that instead of each MP having one voter in parliament, just let their votes be weighted according to the average support of their party. So, for example, divide all the votes for Labour in all constituencies by the number of MPs elected on a labour ticket, and that is the number that replaces "1" when a Labour MPs vote is counted.

(I suppose this does make it slightly more complicated to count MP votes, maybe they'd need electronic voting.)

Another problem with democracy is short termism. Parties in rule dont want to do things that are unpopular (but necessary) in case they lose votes. Eg environmental policies that would be unpopular wont be done despite being desperately needed. Not sure what system is better but surely a huge flaw in a democracy (with typical voters anyway)