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Original poster

4per cent of new dads have post natal depression

336 replies

longwayoff · 24/07/2018 09:55

Says LBC quoting a Stanford University study. Expert currently pointing out that as pnd is female hormone related, its unlikely to be pnd. What does mumsnet think? Personally I have a cynical eyebrow raised.

OP posts:
LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 25/07/2018 08:21

Or are we still in the "of course men get PND-in fact it's probably worse for them than it is for women , the poor dears...." phase?

No one said that, at any point.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 25/07/2018 08:26

Or are we still in the "of course men get PND-in fact it's probably worse for them than it is for women , the poor dears...." phase?

I don’t think anyone has suggested or implied that! But I think you know that already. Stop making things up.

LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 25/07/2018 08:29

Here's where I am:

  1. There's a range of mental health problems that men and women may suffer as a direct or indirect result of having a child. Some issues are exclusive to women, some aren't.
  1. Right now the only terminology we have that is widely understood is pnd. We need better understanding and better terminology but in the meantime we have to use what we have. Male pnd is the term currently used by doctors but by all means let's try to establish a different term for men and women who are suffering from something that may be more akin to situational depression. I confess that I find that painful because it sort of strips me of my diagnosis but I do agree that a different term would be helpful.
  1. Despite the fact that I strongly identify as a feminist, I have been shocked at the level of vitriol directed at any human being suffering from horrific mental health problems on this thread. I am absolutely disgusted and going to take a break from mumsnet as a result.
BertrandRussell · 25/07/2018 08:31

Then why are people so insistent on using the term PND to describe men's experience? No thoughtful, sensitive man would want to appropriate like that. They would want their own experience to be validated and acknowledged for what it is.

Sirzy · 25/07/2018 08:32

Very good post lorelai

Some of the attitudes on this thread are disgusting. It’s no wonder we have such issues around people asking for help!

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/07/2018 08:33

I think the key things for me are:

Are there sufficient services and support for new mums? I have to say I think the answer is no. So that needs improving

How best to screen new dads - HV primarily has contact with the mother and if dads are back to work v soon then there is a risk of missing depression.

Need for a new term for male depression post birth.

I think what this does point to is that the immediate post birth period is very often a huge challenge for the couple. We no longer have the ‘village’ social setup, many parents work long hours, and feel isolated. Better support services post birth and for these to be publicised pre birth would be my aim.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 25/07/2018 08:33

Despite the fact that I strongly identify as a feminist, I have been shocked at the level of vitriol directed at any human being suffering from horrific mental health problems on this thread. I am absolutely disgusted and going to take a break from mumsnet as a result

Well said, a few posters on here really did not cover themselves in glory on this thread.

BertrandRussell · 25/07/2018 08:33

"have been shocked at the level of vitriol directed at any human being suffering from horrific mental health problems on this thread"
Really? Have you been reading a different thread? Saying that men do not get PND is not denying their experience or being vitriolic.

MrsJayy · 25/07/2018 08:41

How would somebody strongly ID as a feminist ? anyway I think you have been reading what you want from this thread nobody has diminished mens mental health we are just saying they can't get PND like the initial post regarding the research said.

LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 25/07/2018 08:44

Did you miss the posts where men suffering from mental health problems were described as selfish and childish?

User183737 · 25/07/2018 08:51

Nobody has dismissed men having mh problems. They even have them around the birth of a child. But it is not and will never be true pnd. That takes away the experience of women, what they go through from conception until after birth.
Men should get support yes. But not by taking something else from women. It should be different in diagnosis and in support, but yes there should be supporr.
I just think that if a woman deserves a title to describe her vulnerability, suffering and needs at any time in her life, then at childbearing that is the time she should get it.
Giving pnd diagnosis to men totally dismisses the massive strain on women. No doubt men wouldnt, on being seen as emotionally unstable, be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder on the scale women are. Because that is derogatory and dismisses distress as a personality defect. So men are not let down in that way.
Pnd to me is sacred, it only happens to women. Please dont try to compare it to the male experience and take yet another thing away from wonen

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 25/07/2018 08:57

Despite the fact that I strongly identify as a feminist, I have been shocked at the level of vitriol directed at any human being suffering from horrific mental health problems on this thread

If i hadnt read the thread i might be thinking that it was 312 posts of vitriol

There is always the odd poster who says something dreadful...doesnt mean that the whole thread has been the same

Most posters have said that it is depression and men need support

BertrandRussell · 25/07/2018 09:00

"Did you miss the posts where men suffering from mental health problems were described as selfish and childish?"
Sometimes men are selfish and childish around the birth of a child. These are not mental health problems.

As a rule of thumb, I would put a man saying he had PND into the selfish and childish box rather than the mental health box. Which, I suspect is why the figure is as low as 4%. I think a lot more men than that will have mental health issues around the birth of their babies. But they, quite rightly, don't want to appropriate PND. Which is why we need a different name.

Teasavedmylife · 25/07/2018 09:05

Then why are people so insistent on using the term PND to describe men's experience? No thoughtful, sensitive man would want to appropriate like that

Because that’s what the NHS & doctors use currently. What would you expect a “thoughtful, sensitive man” to do if he is diagnosed with it? It’s not about them deliberately using the word to take something for their own use

LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 25/07/2018 09:33

It's the medical term used to describe the illness.

Anyway, I'm off to go worship at the alter of my sacred mental illness now.

peachgreen · 25/07/2018 10:20

@LorelaiVictoriaGilmore I'm so sorry this thread was upsetting for you. I think it triggered me in a similar way in that if men can have the same thing as I had then it can't be the intensely physical, hormone-driven rollercoaster I feel I experienced and that makes me feel a bit lost, if that makes sense. So I totally understand how you're feeling and I'm so sorry this thread took such a nasty turn. Even as someone who has been arguing that people who don't give birth can't experience PND, I found @Redbriefcase's posts absolutely abhorrent.

MNHQ
HebeMumsnet · 25/07/2018 10:30

Morning, everyone. We've had a bit of a tidy up of last night's posts and deleted some that we felt were either personal attacks or disablist. We'll have a word with the poster concerned.

Just a reminder that while we think it's fine to discuss this issue and even the pros and cons of calling it 'male PND', we don't think it's ok to suggest that someone with depression (of whatever variety) is being 'needy' or 'selfish' or anything like that.

Mumsnet is primarily a place for all parents to find and offer support, so please do post with that in mind. Thank you!

ichifanny · 25/07/2018 10:36

No one has diminished men’s mental health I’m a big advocate for mental health issues and I’m very vocal in real life about equality and men’s rights , I just don’t feel the vulnerable post natal period for woman is a time to be dealing with men’s issues and putting that upon fragile women with physical problems and precarious mental health themselves . I’m confused to why WOMEN on the thread are taking it as a personal slight against their post natal depression .

ichifanny · 25/07/2018 10:42

Just for a bit of context I’m 32 weeks pregnant and high risk of PND from my horrific high risk pregnancy and very lucky to have a husband who recognises this and is offering me support and understanding at what my body is currently going through . Were he to become mentally ill id jump into action and get him the support he needs but currently HE is supporting me and recognising that I’ve had ante natal depression and possibly will have post natal just in the way I’ve supported him through major life events and put him first ,When his mother died , when he had health issues , when kids were ill etc , I was there for him ,

Is it really that abhorrent that women drop the ball on looking out for their husbands for once at the most stressful time of their lives ?

LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 25/07/2018 10:48

I’m confused to why WOMEN on the thread are taking it as a personal slight against their post natal depression .

I'm not taking it as a slight against my pnd. I just recognise that what I had is far more akin to something a man might suffer than e.g. what @peachgreen suffered. So if you take the pnd label away from a man, you take it away from me too. And I only got the help I did because of the pnd label.

It's an emotive topic. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 25/07/2018 10:54

lorelai

If this comes out wrong then i apologise

But i think PND should count for hormone driven depression and the depression a mother might have after giving birth...the natel bit

But i think that although I believe that men can get depressed its not natal whether hormone or not

I still think that there should be different names for the depression whether hormonal or not that the mother gets and what the father suffers from

ichifanny · 25/07/2018 10:55

That’s not true at all Lorelei you are a woman who had a baby and all that involves therefore you had post natal depression otherwise you have depression I’m not sure why that upsets you so much , but yes you likely only got rapid help because of the PND label , does this not highlight to you how important it is not to take that away from women ? Should we throw them post natally to the mercy of the regular mental health system and see the outcomes then . I really feel for men who feel they can’t cope with a new baby it’s a hard time but we do need to push back against this sort of thing or we have nothing left in the way of resources . Imagine we made it the job of midwives to check on husbands as well as mother and babies can you imagine how stretched resources would become and how many women would miss being diagnosed ?

BertrandRussell · 25/07/2018 11:17

“So if you take the pnd label away from a man, you take it away from me too. And I only got the help I did because of the pnd label”

Oh my word.....lorelai, this really is the wrong way round! If you give the PND label to men, that’s when you take it away from women and dilute the help and support women need. Which is really what i’ve Been trying to say all along. Of course men’s mental health around childbirth is important, but it mustn’t take away from the stretched resources available to women.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 25/07/2018 11:21

Despite the fact that I strongly identify as a feminist, I have been shocked at the level of vitriol directed at any human being suffering from horrific mental health problems on this thread

Sorry, i hadnt seen any of the red posts when i posted...but my post still stands...i think Smile

LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 25/07/2018 11:22

I disagree. The depression I experienced absolutely could be experienced by a man. It had nothing to do with childbirth or hormones and everything to do with feeling trapped, exhausted and bored. The help I received would have been totally available to a man with pnd... a gp appointment and a charity that runs support groups for men and women with pnd. And what finally cured me... getting a nanny going back to work.