4per cent of new dads have post natal depression

[longwayoff]

Says LBC quoting a Stanford University study. Expert currently pointing out that as pnd is female hormone related, its unlikely to be pnd. What does mumsnet think? Personally I have a cynical eyebrow raised.

Same as men being on postnatal wards. Joke.

Actually, I don’t think it is quibbling. PND is a particulat “thing” that is closely linked to hormonal inbalance. If a man said he had PND, my immediate reaction would be “Oh, fuck off”

If he said that he was feeling confused, displaced, depressed, tired, worried he had done the wrong thing, terrified, helpless, anxious, panicky- the list goes on- it wouldn’t.

I thought new dad's do have some hormonal changes - at least I've read that is some science magazines.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/fathers-to-be-may-have-hormonal-changes-too/

The expectant fathers showed drops in testosterone and estradiol – a form of estrogen – but no changes in cortisol or progesterone, two hormones that are implicated in stress, say the authors.

Though NHS summerises the actual study and it's small:

www.nhs.uk/news/mental-health/fathers-to-be-experience-hormone-changes/

I'm not saying men suffer from PND but perhaps some of them are particularly senstive to homones changes or suffer greater than normal changes. It's not an area with a lot of research so it's not like we'd know.

Though I suspect its mainly new situation stress.

I don't think anybody is being pedantic they are being truthful and factual but not pedantic.

What hormone changes exactly do they have? Fuck all compared to the MASSIVE drop in progesterone women have just after giving birth

And this thread is rather proving the point. If they hadn’t called it PND we would be having a much more interesting conversation ........

Fuck all compared to the MASSIVE drop in progesterone women have just after giving birth

Well yea - and the study says that.

However we are were talking about 4% of new fathers hardly a huge number and most of that number is going to reactive depression.

So while I don't think calling it pnd is helpful ignoreing or dismissing fact that a small number of new fathers are depressed isn't helpful as it's going to impact on the new Mum the most at time she is least able to cope with it.

Does it really matter what name you give it? Just help people for God's sake. I can't believe there is even a thread about this. How desperately sad for people who are struggling to now have to deal with a backlash of "you can't have that depression, that's MY depression!"

1 in 20 isn’t really a small amount!

“How desperately sad for people who are struggling to now have to deal with a backlash of "you can't have that depression, that's MY depression!"”

That really is a daft thing to say. PND is a term with a meaning. That meaning can not apply to men.

And not wanting to call men’s experience PND does not mean ignoring men’s experience.

I can’t really see how calling it PND for a man takes anything away from women who experience it. If a woman has it, it’s linked to hormones (sometimes! not always), if a man has it, it’s linked to other things... so what?
PND is a scale in any sense, such as any depression is, some people get it “worse” than others and we don’t tell women they can’t have PND just because they’re not on the same level of the scale as others.
I find some of the comments here a bit dismissive of men having depression after childbirth - my DH really struggled with depression after DS1 was born and it was huge for all of us. Let’s just be kind to each other and support where support is needed

I had PND which as pp said was totally different to the depression I've had since my teens. I was angry, like, uncontrollable raging, scratching my skin off because I couldn't bear being in my body angry; running into the traffic to make it stop angry - not the catatonic lows I'd had before.

My husband was severely depressed too. We would both love a more open discussion about the emotional throatpunch new parenthood is for men, and the depression that can follow, but my husband agrees that our two experiences were wholly different in nature, and there needs to be a distinction between a hormonal imbalance that can cause either an acute episode or trigger underlying tendancies to depression, and an acute/triggering episode brought about by external factors.

And not wanting to call men’s experience PND does not mean ignoring men’s experience.

My comment was more in response to User183737 that the hormone changes are slight compare to women’s which they are - but doesn't mean they don't have huge affects on individual men. It wasn't to not calling the illness pnd.

1 in 20 isn’t really a small amount! Well it's still smaller than the 1/3 to half figures for women usually quoted.

Though in RL I know a few mother diagnosed with PND who ended up not having that but underlying conditions like thyroid problems or anaemia. For them it was new baby must be PND and their GP didn’t investigate further - hopefully that’s not common though.

I also had PND which came on later (at about 2 months) and didn’t find the difference with other bouts of depression I’d had when younger, as with any depression the experience I think is unique to the individual

My pnd wasn’t hormonal it was due to ds being unwell. I think pnd is caused by two things hormones and psychological reasons so men can get it to if not then surely I didn’t have pnd?

Please listen to this

It's obviously not PND in the sense of that caused by pregnancy chemicals (unless we are talking about trans men who have given birth, in which case it might be) but I absolutely understand why life changing emotional upheaval and a disruption of everything you knew and did can lead to depression. And actually I would suspect that the real figure is 4%.

Anyone with depression should be supported not judged, and given the help they need to recover.

I believe it exists, but should have a different name. As others have said, PND is hormonal and only exists as a diagnosis post partum, because of the changes post partum. It needs a different name, and acceptance that men also go through an emotional upheaval post birth which some don't cope with.

*more than 4% that should say

I don’t doubt that new dads can face depression. They do, and it needs to be addressed and treated.

However it cannot be called PND. PND is postnatal depression. It has roots in biology, female biology and also in the tiredness and demands of new parenthood. In males, the roots will be mainly the demands of parenthood.

Calling it PND is wrong - it just needs a different name.

Actually bertrand it's completely ignoring men's experiences.

I've been on MN a long time and your hatred for men is actually disturbing. But going as far as to say that men can't experience depression the same as women is insane. And dangerous.

Men have a higher suicide rate than women, and the reluctance to help men in the same way we help women is not a coincidence, it's a direct cause for men not seeking help.

"Actually bertrand it's completely ignoring men's experiences.

I've been on MN a long time and your hatred for men is actually disturbing. But going as far as to say that men can't experience depression the same as women is insane. And dangerous."

I said nothing of the sort. Please retract.

Actually suicide is the no1 killer of women in the first year after birth

Actually suicide is the no1 killer of women in the first year after birth

I never said otherwise. Globally the rate of suicide is higher for men than for women.