To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

Btw I wasn't directing that at specific people but the way this thread is going indicates that most parents would not let their son wear a dress.

'I also admire your ‘who cares’ attitude and agree about resilience however, I do think that you need to consider that your son might not be as strong as you are and that he will face difficulties as he gets older.'

I don't think it's a matter of being strong tbh - I don't think I'm particularly strong, it's just that I have better things to worry about than what people I don't care about think of me. I don't have time for it! I'm sure my DS and DD will both face difficulties - everybody does - but my point is that I don't think changing themselves is a good response to those difficulties as it doesn't solve any problems, it just sends the message that the bullies are right and that they have a right to dictate what they do. Of course if my DS came along and said 'I'd love to wear dresses but I won't any more because I'm sick of the comments' I would absolutely support him in that but I would hope we could talk about how he's not wrong to want to wear dresses but it's ok to just be tired of other people sometimes. The main message I want to give him though is that he can be himself, even if others don't necessarily appreciate him. In the long run I think that works out better.

See my neice is overweight and bullied for it-it hurts her. She posted a snapchat foto entitled 'hot or not?'
100 people said 'not'.
By the op's approach she should say 'so', as did my sibling. I would have been the one to say no chance. She was gutted, i saw it coming. I also tell my kids when they are spotty to use cream, when they are greasy to wash. I tell them when they smell as i do when their clothes dont look right. As teenagers its about survival.

I was bullied as a child and I would never ever advise my DD to change herself to fit in...because the only thing worse than being bullied at school is having your parents side with the bullies and tell you that you should change who you are.

Do you consider being 'progressive' to be a bad thing?
No. I think there are many benefits to moving past gender stereotypes.

I'm just also sceptical at an increasing number of parents who seem to think that the way to challenge gender stereotype is to steer their children towards the opposite gender stereotypes.

I believe that boys and girls can have a range of interests and traits, but find people who go on about their gender neutral parenting either go to a world of beige and pretend social gender norms don't exist or go the other way of 'look at my girl in a trucker top, look at my boy in a sparkly dress'.
It all feels like the more gender is the fashionable topic, the more some parents use their children as statements of how 'right on' and withit their.personal identity politics are.

For what it's worth, I was a dress and trainer wearing, mud loving girl who loved sparkles and BMXing with the boys. My male friends used to stick my stick on body jewels at the side of their eyes and we'd cover ourselves in glitter body spray before playing ninjas and powerrangers. Our parents, quite rightly, understood the difference between play and reality.
I find myself wondering if we were kids now whether Timmy's mum would have sent him to the school disco in a glittery top to prove how cool she is with a gender fluid child

Telling you what to wear isnt changing who you are. Telling someone to speak differently etc is.

Telling you what to wear isnt changing who you are.
I agree. But then on a recent thread someone was claiming that not having neon hair and piercings in order to follow a dress code was being asked to compromise their identity.

A lot of identity politics these days seems very much on superficial details of how you look and present.

'As teenagers its about survival.'

This is a sad statement. My teenage years weren't about survival they were about being with people who cared about me and supported me (people who are still my friends) and having fun. Yes it was difficult at times but I never felt like I had to survive the judgement of others because I only ever cared about what people close to me thought and they were only ever kind to me (even if they had to say something harsh!). People did say nasty things to me (I had glasses and wonky teeth and eventually had braces, including headgear! I was also a swot) but I didn't have to 'survive' it - my attitude was that they had no right to comment on me.

“This comment makes it seem like he's doing something really dangerous - that he needs to make an 'informed decision' because of some sort of consequence. Is that what you mean?”

No, not really dangerous. But some people will judge. Some people will be arseholes. And some people will remember. When he is 14 he may not want to be characterized as the boy who wore a dress in year 2. He needs to be aware this might happen, and be mature enough to know whether he minds or not. If he is old enough for that, fine. If he isn’t, it’s a parent’s job to decide for him. When my ds was 5 he wanted to dye his hair pink for comic relief. I didn’t let him because I was not convinced he understood that having pink hair for some time in a very “macho” school/football club environment may not be much fun. When he was 7 I let him because I was as sure as I could be that he understood.

A boy in my Dds class wears a Bobble in his hair and dresses up in Princess dresses. His mother definitely doesn't force him to, she just accepts him for who he is. I think they are a fantastic family. I'm sure there are a few people who do laugh behind their backs but generally everyone just accepts him and its really not an issue. They also have another son who is a stereotypical 'boy'.

Who even cares if a boy wears a dress? It's one of those things that I really don't understand.

Anyway op, good for you for letting your son be himself. His clothes aren't hurting anyone so I don't see why anyone should have a problem with what he wears.

A lot of bullying could be avoided if parents didn't pass on their judgemental opinions to their kids.

'Telling you what to wear isnt changing who you are'

So would you be happy with someone telling you what to wear in your own time, every day?

@MaisyPops what makes you think I make my son wear dresses or push him towards anything?

'But some people will judge. Some people will be arseholes. And some people will remember. When he is 14 he may not want to be characterized as the boy who wore a dress in year 2. '

Yes some people judge and are arseholes. That's life. What boggles me is the fear of it - as though it's some awful awful thing. It's just people thinking things - what effect does that have?

Bullying is not fucking character building. It's cause me massive self esteem and mental health issues.

I was bullied because unknown at the time I'm autistic. I knew I was different but not why I was different and I couldn't be any other way so I was bullied for it.

People should be able to be themselves in whatever manner that means and left alone to just be. As long as it harms no one.

Bullying should never be tolerated or accepted as inevitable. No one has the right to force their own prejudices on another.

It's a statement of an increasing trend.

One of my male friends would dress up as princesses. There's quite a bit of work done on the role of make believe on children's development.

Socialisation is complex. It would be interesting to find a boy who despite all the complex factors surrounding socialisation would just happen to decide they want to wear dresses. At some point that'll have been suggested or presented to them as an option.

Nobody is entirely neutral. Parenting is not neutral. Anyone who claims otherwise is being disingenuous.

Which is why I'm sceptical of people who claim to be gender neutral parents as it seems to present this idea of being free from socialisation and bias when really it's more often just taking a different set of biases and faking neutrality to sound good.

I think most parents choose their kids clothes when they are younger simply because if theyfollow their kids whims at that age they would choose stuff that was too expensive or unsuitable. I also don't have the time to spend walking around with a five year old saying what do you like. Most little kids don't care what they wear really at all. I think therefore that encouraging them to 'choose' is actually making a statement. Whatever the reasoning behind it, they may be teased, they will definitely be noticed as different and many people will think they have a gender identity issue. This may not bother you or them now but there may come a time when it does. It seems to be searcing out a problem to promote this choice for no real reason .

Fair enough @MaisyPops. To be honest I have no idea where DS got the notion of wearing dresses - my parenting isn't really gender neutral in the sense that I do buy 'boy' things for DS and 'girl' things for DD. Maybe it was seeing his sister getting 'girl' things that did it? He's into My Little Pony and Minecraft so he has both 'boy' and 'girl' interests. Interestingly for years he struggled with 'he' and 'she' pronouns - he used to randomly call people he or she and never seemed to notice if someone was male or female. We used to correct him and he finally got it when he was about 5. DD never had any such problem.

I have no agenda around the clothes he wears - I think it would be really really odd if I did.

"At some point that'll have been suggested or presented to them as an option."

Yes. I'm not sure why this is wrong.

Anyone who claims to be free from socialisation and bias is clearly wrong. All you can do is to try and be aware of your biases and your default socialisation and try to consciously think if it's necessary to follow along with it. When offering clothes to children, I don't think it is necessary to avoid offering pink to a boy, or avoid offering dresses/skirts/etc.

I get my children to choose their own clothes @cansu mainly because DD is very very picky - if the sleeves are too long or too short or too wide or too fucking thin she won't wear it. I bought many things that didn't get worn before I gave in got her to choose her own. As she's choosing DS does too. I know a lot of other parents who get their children to choose too. I just take them to Tesco so they can't choose anything too expensive.

I don't think I did ever offer it as a suggestion tbh - it wouldn't have occurred to me. I can't really remember but I imagine I was buying a dress for DD and DS asked to get a dress too.

I can't really imagine a situation in which a parent would say 'I'm going to get my DS to wear dresses even though he's never asked to wear them' - why would do they do that? If their motivation was to make some sort of point then that would make them a massive bellend IMO. I would never do that.

As I say though - my main point isn't about dresses etc, it's about getting children to change to conform to what bullies want.

User183737

Depending on how old your niece is it isn't your or her mother's place to tell her whether or not she can post pictures of herself but to prepare her for the likely consequence of what she posts. Similarly if a boy felt strongly he wanted to wear a dress I'd prepare him for the fact that he may encounter negative reactions and if he wanted to go ahead I'd make a plan of how he should react to them if they happen.

OP No I wouldn't let him wear clothing that wasn't right for the weather because that may end up in him being ill or injured. Obviously I don't want that.

So you do put your foot down when you feel the way he chooses to dress may endanger him? Well, not all dangers are physical in nature are they? What about the psychological damage that may, not saying will, result from bullying or being ostracised by some of his peers (again not saying all)?

What if the negative reaction comes from an adult? = I'm not sure what you mean? As in, he should change what he wants because an adult doesn't approve?

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying he may be able to withstand the pressure from his peers and turn away criticism with a snappy comeback but that isn't going to work on an adult bent on victimising him is it? There may be adults in authority who feel, like some posters here, that 'boys in dresses are ridiculous' and allow their prejudices to negatively impact the way they treat him. And, no, they shouldn't and yes, you can report them if they do, but I'd rather not put my child at the risk of that kind of treatment in the first place.

It's all very well to buck the system and march to the beat of your own drum when you are an adult as I said before; you be a pioneer if you want (and your DH too - mind you, the impact made by the statement of a man wearing a dress at Halloween kind of gets lost in the costumed crowd wouldn't you say?) but when it comes to expecting a child to stand alone on the frontline, I'm not so sure.

"Yes some people judge and are arseholes. That's life. What boggles me is the fear of it - as though it's some awful awful thing. It's just people thinking things - what effect does that have?"
Ah. Right. You don't understand the long term impact that unkind words can have. Blimey.

Wish I'd said that Bertrand or at least, I wish I'd said it as succinctly.

I know that unkind words can have an effect Bertrand - but only if the person listens to those words and takes them on board. If you say to me here for example that I'm an idiot, that's unkind, but it has no effect on me because I don't know you and I don't care what you think of me. So my view is that I can't stop other people from being arseholes, because they exist everywhere but I can give my kids the resilience not to care what those arseholes think - does that make sense? I don't think him never wearing a dress will protect him from nasty people.

I think the same point goes for your post Elemental - people may be mean to him no matter what he does - do I get him to carefully choose everything he ever does on that basis or just get him to follow what he wants and tell the arseholes to get lost?

Frankly if an adult is victimising him I don't think the dress is the issue.