To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

We all have to pick our battles knowing they could hurt. A child, with less life experience and emotional knowledge and quite more vulnerable, takes more risks when they do so.
Pretty much my view. And as adults we should be aware of that, not tale the view that you'd rather a child was picked on so you can feel like you're right.

Adults and teens are in a position with more experience to challenge things and to make an informed decision when they choose to.
A primary aged child barely out of KS1 doesn't have the same ability to make an informed decision, so doing things that needlessly place them at risk of being a target for no gain seems silly to me, especially when it's accompanied with self-righteous claims that anyone who disagrees must be a conformity bot or a bully apologist.

I see teens challenge stereotypes all the time. I see women embrace androgynous looks. I see men increasingly becoming comfortable with embracing elements of personal grooming and style that would have seen them bullied years ago for being 'gay'. There's mass discussion about gender and socialisation and what it means to be a woman. There's progress raising the profile of men's mental health after years of it being considered 'girly' to talk about feelings. And all of that change is great... but they are not battles for children to fight (least of all by sticking a boy in a dress, knowing how the world works and then claiming but it's just their choice).

I don’t think it had much to do with performers. Ds2 has been in west end tours & sang solos in front of audiences of 2k.

He’s quite shy & still dresses to fit in. He’s old enough to decide for himself when he wants to be the centre of attention. I doubt he would have thanked me for making him stand out before he was old enough to understand the consequences (thinking about the 4 year old on the other thread)

And yes I agree with maisypops. For me it’s about whether an informed choice has been made. If it has great, support it. If not it doesn’t need to be imposed.

"I'll be back later".

Simply can't wait! I love being told , in a passive agressive way, that I condone bullying because I have concerns for a 7 year olds wellbeing .

See you in a bit!

I would like to reply to all those who say it's ok for a child to hide part of them self away to fit in, well my netball playing rugby playing Ds1, 18 now, awaiting to hopefully go to university, was encouraged to A level by two brilliant teachers, who knew his weakness and promised him help. Sadly one died and one could only have him in 45% of the lessons. So we got two new male teacher's, both have spent 3 terms ridiculing and bully him because he wasn't in their eyes a good enough student and too bloody shy and stupid to make the grades, one even told him in front of us he was thick and useless and if he had his way he wouldn't be in his group, but his other teachers wouldn't let him kick him out. We demanded support, got a little.
Long story short, my bloody amazing son continued to hide the teachers comments and personal attacks for fear of letting us and his friends down, he had meltdown in his AS exam, exam cancelled.
We weren't told until exam board asked for our comments. He had a breakdown, in last year's summer. He is under CAMHS. He is no longer the happy 16 year old, he won't be the engineer he wanted to be from 12, no longer have the chance to go to Canada, he has a new career hope. But this morning we had another major break down, took 2 off us to stop him hurting himself and possibly his mum.
45 minute later he was a sobbing wreck, horrified that his actions could have hurt his mum.

So all you narrow minded people, saying we should stop our being themselves, that even when it comes from a teacher, who should off known fucking better, can lead to disaster, my son may never be himself again, my mate hung himself because his dad didn't want a gay son. We are the bloody adults, if you really have to laugh at boy/man in a dress I suggest you all join stonewall and do something to help change society.

I despair at the crap spouted by many on this thread, I can only hope none of you ever have access to either of my boys, because my wife could happy kill that teacher right now.

Sorry about your son but bullying by 2 teachers is different. They should know better.
Your posts are highly focused on sexuality, i dont know if you or your sons are gay. But this, or my argument, was more to the op encouragibg a child to do something most parents wouldnt and sitting back thinking, well if he gets bullied he will be resilient enough to cope. She doesnt know that, having not been affected by severe bullying, so her actions are putting him at risk of bullying. Which yes is wrong but happens everywhere.
Your position is different as it was a sport. Was the exam today, as yesterday you seemed all for netball. Dance etc are different as boys can find a peer group where others dance. Similar to you saying there are other boy netballers.but wearing dresses-just no. Not because i would laugh no, but because 100% others will and i no way would put my child through that when it would have been as easy to wear trousers. Fuck stonewall, fuck social change. My focus is getting my kid through their teenage years. My kids survival is my priority, nobody elses, and if that makes me selfish im sorry but so be it.

I would like to add that i wouldnt openly share these views with my kids, who arent bullies. But also that if my y8 son had a dress wearer in his class aged 13, my reaction wouldnt be angry. I woukd be supportive because that child has been brave to be themselves despite knowing the result. Whereas with parents like op the 'choice' and 'individuality' are down to the parents.

I am drawn back in op as I find this fascinating.

So in my experience there are a few people who buck the trends and get away with it. I have known 3 in my life. 2 at school and 1at work and all 3 had this immense charisma I supppse in that they were effortlessly popular without being good looking or particularly clever etc just popular.

I wonder if that is fostered by the attitude of your ‘I don’t give a shit what people think’ giving them an inner confidence that is somehow radiated to others or it’s just luck.

Are some people born with confidence? But if you pretend to be confident it shows and bullies pick on that as they know deep down you arnt? Interesting I think.

I think your strategy is risky on face value and I would never have adopted it for my own children but it’s certainly interesting.

user1471

that’s a horrific awful post and I am so sorry for your lad. The teachers are disgraceful.

Look I do have some experience of calms for my dd. Very different issues as she had PTSD and was a wreak at 14, she’s now 19 heading to uni, been around the world back packing and on track. We never ever thought she would recover

Things can get better. Xxxx

User
I am proud of the netball, always will be, as I am proud of him been part of RL National School Champions for Year 9, and runners up in Year 10.
Why because like his mum and me, not his brother, he is painfully shy, struggles for self confidence and has anxiety issues. He over came all of those, there where no boys playing for a whole year, many parents had Bertrand's views boys should be banned, girls sport, grown men calling him a pansie.
But those 2 teachers decided been shy and lacking confidence, made my son a no hoper.
No I'm not gay, but as a 16 year old and been told on your birthday your best hung himself, that day, lives with you for life, believe me.
Has for my sons, I don't know, both have had girlfriends, but I really don't give a toss, you keep going on about hiding kids true thoughts to survive, I just know that causes bigger problems later.
I am going now, people don't get it, if you can't be who you are and how you want, as long as it's NOT ILLEGAL, well whats the point of living.
I wonder if you would tell a Muslim women not to wear a Hijab, because there's been a upturn in violence against them, or shouldn't we tell the people who attack them, YOU ARE WRONG.
My son is fearing failing his A levels, because that will prove the teachers right, he was in a dark place. My wife, Ds and I feared for his safety, we all cried.
Why can't the OP son wear a dress, why can my son be shy and slightly socially awkward, BECAUSE PEOPLE IN SOCIETY SAY MEN MOST BE BIG, HARD and NEVER CRY.
I truly say to people like that grow up, and leave kids alone.

But also that if my y8 son had a dress wearer in his class aged 13, my reaction wouldnt be angry. I woukd be supportive because that child has been brave to be themselves despite knowing the result. Whereas with parents like op the 'choice' and 'individuality' are down to the parents.
I agree.
It is down to parents at young ages and it's worse when they pretend that it has nothing to do with them at all. It's irresponsible.

All bullying should be stamped on. It's horrible. As a victim of awful bullying, would I make a choice knowing that my child risked being subjected to anything like I was or through when they don't have the ability or maturity to make an informed decision on the risks? Absolutely not.

It's very easy to smugly say 'all these bully apologists want to remove individuality from our children who are so unique and we encourage whatever they like'. But I tell you what if I went through what I went through and my parents had it in their power to prevent it, I'd have less respect for them. I'd want to know why their image and desire to be cool meant knowingly risking the suffering I went through. I'd want to know how they could look me in the eye after being bullied and still claim 'but we just let you do what you wanted to, remember YOU chose to...' (aka it has nothing to do with us as the responsible adults. We'll abdicate responsibility because we only did what you wanted).

As a victim of bullying I don't honestly see how anyone can say 'I'd rather they had a spot of teasing and teach them to be strong'. Being bullied didn't make me strong. It ruined a year of my life and affected my willingness to open up to friends ever since.

I'd absolutely support my children to stand up for what they believe in and make a stand when they can make an informed decisions, but no way on this earth would I risk them going through what I went through in order to feel like a cool woke parent who's so right on.

You make a valid point maisy

Seasawride
Thank you for flowers, I so glad your DD is coping so well.
Please ignore where I get mad, especially last post at 18:43.
Ds was really doing well, then a stupid comment from a great uncle, about men, complete threw him. Emotional day, not helped by us both working this evening. I have spoken to him, and he is quiet but ok.

I do still think as long as the child himself, wants to do it, and understands the consequences, then as a parent you should back them. But totally agree no child should be forced to do it for their parents ideals as a rugby coach I have seen to many kids (boys and girls) forced to play to keep dad/mum happy.
I did say that in my 1st post. Got distracted.
I think I will lurk from now on. Too much raw emotion

Raw emotion has helped you post here which has given others a new perspective. Hope all goes well x

User1471

Don’t lurk post away mumsnet is a rough tough place esp aibu but when you really need help you get it on this site. Please don’t worry about being emotional or what you post there are always people who have trode your path and can help.

I understand your anger user and I think it's worth expressing - it is very angry-making when someone is just getting on with their life and others insist on dragging them down for no reason.

In my experience, some people who target others who are different do so because of their own fear - they fear being different themselves or have been bullied themselves and so attack others as a sort of projection of that fear. When DS was very little he used to wear princess dresses at toddler group and a Chinese friend of mine made faces and tried to make a few comments to me about it implying how silly he was. I said, as kindly as I could, that I didn't agree with trying to make a child feel silly for playing as he wanted to. She looked mortified but later explained that where she's from in China a boy dressing up in girl's clothes would possibly be beaten by a parent and would definitely be ridiculed. So she had an automatic fear reaction that she couldn't control. She also said that she wasn't sure what the norms were in the UK or in the group of parents. I explained that while some parents might be weird about a toddler in a dress most wouldn't. It may be a different story with older people.

My PILs are racist. From talking to them it's clear their racism comes from a fear of the unknown - not knowing how other people act, what their expectations might be. They are afraid of looking silly if they don't understand someone or if they say the wrong thing so they pre-emptively reject anyone different. They are quite socially awkward people anyway so someone who isn't 'standard' and predictable is a step too far for them. Doesn't excuse it of course, but it at least explains it.