To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

Interesting thought that salad and dresses are basic life needs.

let them laugh

Jesus that’s a tough one to take for a child. Lot easier as an adult.

Spaghetti,

You have such confidence that you are right that it is a little scary.

Sadly, if your son did get bullied, you would not be able to step in nearly as quickly as you think you could. Bullying is insidious and nasty and hard to prove. If you had been bullied, your child had or if you even read the bullying threads on here, you would realise that.

I think a part of teaching resilience to kids is teaching them to be able to fit in. Once they have mastered this (and it is not easy) they can then choose to stick out.

'We are not discussing your life though are we?'

Posters have said that because of bullies I should tell my son to stop wearing dresses - so yes in that case they would be controlling my life, and by extension my son's (given that he hasn't actually been bullied). Regardless, bullies certainly don't control my son's life, and I wouldn't want them to either.

These kids that want to wear dresses...,where they getting the idea from if not from the parents. It wouldn't occur to my grandsons in a million years to want to wear dresses. Probably because the parents aren't coaxing them into thinking it's normal. Even most girls don't wear dresses after a certain age so why the hell would a boy want to.

'I think a part of teaching resilience to kids is teaching them to be able to fit in. Once they have mastered this (and it is not easy) they can then choose to stick out.'

Interesting theory. I don't agree. If someone fits in by closing off parts of who they are, in can be extremely difficult to reawaken those parts later on. It's such a waste too - everyone's unique, why even everyone out into one smooth mass? What does that serve?

'because that will lead to some interesting choices later you might feel unable not to comment on. I am thinking of thinks that might upset you, like misogynist rap lyrics on a t shirt. or rascism.'

No child of mine would be allowed in my house wearing clothing with a message that hurts other people. There is a huge difference between going ahead and wearing an unusual clothing choice and choosing to wear something that is deliberately offensive.

There’s no point in debating this.

Op you are convinced that letting your son wear dresses won’t lead to bullying and if it does you will be there for him and he able to deal with it.

It will and you won’t.

As Larry says read the threads. Schools have a hard time dealing with bullying so I don’t think you will have the magic solution.

Please protect him now as he’s so vulnerable and put your feelings of right and wrong or your enjoyment of having a free spirited non conformist child last and his well being first. Not because ransoms on the Internet say so but because some of us have had experience of teens being bullied and probably of bullying too and it’s not as easy to navigate and deal with as you seem to think.

Say for example Larry, a child is a very talented dancer, but because his friends think dancing is 'girly' he decides not to dance while young in order to fit in. He may then decide at a later age to resume dancing but at that stage all of the other dancers are way way ahead of him - his talent has been squandered to idiots who he probably won't even see again.

Everyone has only one short life. I can't really see the point in wasting it neatly boxing yourself in so as not to upset people who don't even really give a shit.

If someone fits in by closing off parts of who they are, in can be extremely difficult to reawaken those parts later on
My personality is my personality whether I wear a dress, pyjamas, fancy dress, have natural hair, blue hair, full face of make up or none.
It's yet again this assumption that superficial elements of someone's appearance = some fundamental part of their sense of self.

It does seem that between some millenials 'boohoo i have to follow a dress code' to some student's 'boohoo my hair is my personality' and some parents with their 'don't make my DC conform to a uniform in school because it's blind obedience and forcing them to be robots' and now things like this, we're going to be getting an increasing number of people with very fragile senses of self and fragile personalities.

Can I add one more comment. In 28 years of parenting one thing I have learned is I don’t have all the answers and I am never 100% correct and it’s always best to look at your parenting and take on board other views. Especially when you don’t think you need to.

I am teaching them that their thoughts are private and totally free but acting in a certain way will be beneficial to them.

For instance, my oldest (9) hates his teacher and does not respect her. He has his reasons, some fair and some unfair. I have told him that he is entitled to his opinion but, nonetheless, must respect her position and behave respectfully.

You cannot on the one hand argue that clothes are only clothes and people can dress as they like and, on the other, not being allowed to wear a dress is ‘closing off a part of themselves’. Which is it?

Seasawride I totally see that your heart is in the right place and your concern is genuine. Thank you for that.My son is fine and I will take care of him don't worry - I'm not a perfect parent, but I'm a pretty good one (most of the time). I know this worries you terribly and I'm sorry for upsetting you and bringing up hard things - I get why it is such a source of distress for you.

'For instance, my oldest (9) hates his teacher and does not respect her. He has his reasons, some fair and some unfair. I have told him that he is entitled to his opinion but, nonetheless, must respect her position and behave respectfully.

You cannot on the one hand argue that clothes are only clothes and people can dress as they like and, on the other, not being allowed to wear a dress is ‘closing off a part of themselves’. Which is it?'

I think it's pretty obvious but I'll explain anyway. If a child is rude to their teacher they are unkind to another person and they disrupt the learning of the class - not acceptable. If he wears a dress it hurts nobody. See the distinction?

'My personality is my personality whether I wear a dress, pyjamas, fancy dress, have natural hair, blue hair, full face of make up or none.'

If, tomorrow, the government said everyone has to wear a certain uniform at all times - would you be ok with that? Would it be fine with you never to choose your own clothes again?

The reason I ask is because I don't think superficial appearance is everything but I do think that people enjoy expressing themselves through their clothes and would react very negatively to being told they can only wear certain things (outside of work uniforms etc). They're not the be all and end all but clothes are quite important to most people - and most people do choose them quite carefully.

Fair play op I don’t think at all you are a bad parent. Just maybe misguided on this issue but that’s your choice and good luck to your ds.

I also think it's odd to claim that clothes don't really matter when there are 339 messages worth of people talking about how much of a problem dresses on boys are! Clothes clearly carry a lot of meaning for people - lots of posters on this thread have spent a very long time arguing about a boy they don't even know wearing a dress! If it meant nothing everyone would just go 'meh' and walk away.

I should really work so I'm going for now. Thanks for the very passionate contributions!

I'll be back later :)

A girl having short hair and wearing boys clothes to do activities easily, that is fantastic

That is not the attitude we generally meet though.

Dd regularly has conversations with children at school when they insist she is a boy.

Adults will correct her, and me, if she is referred to by female pronouns. I have been stopped in the street and asked why on earth i have allowed my son to go out dressed in his older sister’s clothes.

She was once in the shower at swimming and a two kids came over and took the piss for 10 minutes about her “girls” costume. The parents also chipped in and told me i shouldn’t let my son dress in girls clothes. When told she was a girl i was told she should grow her hair then to avoid people commenting.

It is every day. Dd has grown to enjoy the challenge I think and just brushes it off saying it’s them that need to change their opinions, not her her hair.

I think in 7 years or so of her having short hair i have had two positive comments. One someone stopped me in a very posh cafe to ask if she was a girl and complimented her “look”. The second was when she was stopped at drama class by a model scout, for being “different”

There always needs to be one to change things. If everyone sat in their stereotyped boxes there wouldn’t have been the first girl to go to school, or the first black child to go to a white school.

@seasawride Of course salad and dresses are basic needs!! Lol.

I feel like this issue gets blown really out of proportion especially as the child is seven. Kids can be cruel but they can also be very forgiving and accepting of differences especially if that’s been the norm for particular children from a young age. It’s parents that instill what is normal, not the kids. Steering kids towards certain clothing types happens from both angles. Boys can be steered towards shirts and pants as easily as they can be toward dresses.

As for the bullying—why not teach your child to ignore ignorant laughter or comments now rather than leave them to become uptight self conscious adults who can’t take critiscm or ridicule on the chin? Protecting your child shouldn’t mean stifling self expression or not allowing them the opportunity to develop coping mechanisms that will be important later in life.

My life would be easier if I performed my gender more completely. I wouldn't get dirty looks for speaking during committee meetings, I would have students asking why they aren't being taught by a 'real' professor, I wouldn't have colleagues calling me 'demanding, full of herself, manipulative' when I do exactly the same things they do (less often - its a work in progress), only I do them while in possession of a vagina.

But I'm really glad my parents didn't train me to fit it, to be quiet, and ornamental and to make the tea and not do anything that might frighten the men in committee meetings...like finishing my sentence when one of them tries to talk over me. I'm glad because we only actually change this gendered BS when people aren't socialised into submission to 'fit in'.

The world needs more parents like the OP and far far less conform-bots like larry.

The problem is once they're exhausted, the damage is done. No matter how much I support or fight for my kids, the damage caused by others is done and sometimes caution can be preferable than bravery.

We all have to pick our battles knowing they could hurt. A child, with less life experience and emotional knowledge and quite more vulnerable, takes more risks when they do so. Adults do make mistakes sometimes in being more cautious and sometimes in being too bold for ourselves or for our kids (I mean, my mother coloured my hair from an early age because she thought I looked better and it would make me more popular. It did not work), but neither in themselves is better. It is not innately better to go against the flow and I think few would say we should be cautious in everything, but everyone has to pick battles and for many, in calculating which battles to pick, will put their experience of social stigma and what is and is not likely to bring that on themselves and their kids. Bullying happens so, whether or not it is inevitable, it is part of the picture.

I mean, I have kids who regularly go out in costume bits and I'm not exactly on the cautious side; however, I don't think that parents who took the same information - our surroundings and the likelihood of bullying, rudeness, stress balanced with personal choice and expression - and choose differently to me or have a different definition of reasonable. I tell my kids all the time that 'because I want to' isn't always a good enough reason to do something, we talk through what we think will happen if we do things and sometimes we decide it isn't worth it. Neither being bold or being cautious is always the best path.

Thanks for your comment! I think though that it's not that my concerns are more serious, they're the same concerns but in a different set of circumstances. A pp made the good point that if your son isn't being intimidated by peers for his choice, it perhaps speaks to your milieu and circles? I know that where I grew up, even at age 7 this could be risky for a boy. This isn't a judgement- it's an awesome thing that you and your son are in a position to do this - but the same choices will lead to different reactions in different circumstances I think.

You've drawn me back pie! My area does seem to be tolerant in comparison to what other people have said. Thing is, it's a council estate in the midlands - not exactly Shoreditch! He goes to the local state school and the area is definitely not a wealthy or trendy one - it's the quintessential suburb I think.
I do think DS himself has an influence in that he's very confident - he sang and danced onstage with his class last week in front of over 1000 people and had no nerves about it. I was also like that - I had the lead role in a play in a 2000 seater theatre when I was 11. I certainly took the view when I was a kid that someone commenting on me was a bit odd to think I would give a shit what they thought. I think that came across! I know that that confidence doesn't stop the vicious bullies who are just out for blood btw - but I do think it makes you a bit oblivious to the more low-level stuff.

How do you perform melon? Genuine question? Trans, androgynous etc?

Haha fellow theatre kid here! Yeah that's interesting - whereas we are not a million miles from Shoreditch! Well either way I think you've got the right idea and I'm sure history will agree too...e bloody ventually!

I think partly it could be that neither DS nor I look for validation. A lot of people on the thread said I must enjoy the attention but I don't get any attention from it and I wouldn't enjoy it if I did - it seems really odd to me to enjoy people commenting (I presume negatively?) on your child! Only a close friend has ever commented and that was only to say his dress was lovely. DS doesn't expect anyone to even notice I don't think. He certainly doesn't look for anyone to say anything about it. So people don't.