To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

No, but if a 12 year old boy’s favourite song was ‘frozen’ I would point out that singing it loudly in front of his classmates might attract unwanted attention.

Where would you draw the line at not fitting in?

Clothinga8nd skin colour are obviously not the same thing. However the people who bully you for what you wear are often exactly the same people who will bully you for what you look like. Or what you like. Or who you love. Hence stopping telling people to change themselves to avoid bullying is a pretty retrograde step - in effect you're just telling them to keep their head down in the hope the bully will move onto some poor kid who can't.

I think there is an element of white privilege going on user, definitely. I would hope that my son, because he has the confidence to defend himself, would also be able to support someone from your family who was being racially abused - I would hope he could use his privilege in their favour because of the resilience he has built up. As you know the pioneers of racial equality were those who refused to go along with social norms that made them out to be inferior, often at great personal cost. It takes a certain mindset to go against any sort of bullying.

I'm not sure I understand your question Larry. I wouldn't want my son to 'fit in' with bullies.

Can I go back to something, it's over fifty years since it was a crime to love a man, correctly.
But isn't funny in both codes of rugby, yes there's 2, League and Union, you have openly Gay players, both pro and amateur, openly gay officials, both pro and amateur, womens rugby too.
Women's football out players, hockey both sexs, netball too.
BUT NOT IN FOOTBALL, the man's game, what a sodding disgrace.

We where at a rugby game a male spectator made comment about "a bloody poof(sorry) on the pitch, he was stopped by fellow fans and removed by stewards, I went to Man City with friends, don't ask, Crystal Palace player clearly kick and with blood on his leg goes down. Blokes next to me, in front of 20 primary kids, boys and girls, screams "what a f*ucking poof, get up" the only person to say anything was me, and I said grow up and stop been a idiot.
When will men learn, it not an insult to be called a girl. a girls blouse, a poof, a big women.
WHY?
Because women, are bloody amazing, I watched my wife give birth twice, once with out pain relief, you are stronger then any man I have met.

So what if he carries on or is gay, what harm does he do. In all probability he won't be a danger to any one, more likely he will be acttacked. He certainly is more likely to treat women better, I'm 100% sure it's not men like him who kill 2 women in DV, is a week or a day.

There is a bigger percentage of abuse in homosexual relationships than straight ones-see stonewall.
Lad culture is the working class underpinning of football and gootball hooliganism-again my argument is most lower class whites wouldnt want to make a poof out of their kid. It is white middle classes who allow the option BECAUSE THEY CAN. because they own culture. Although regarding behaviour towards women rugby has the worst and most dangerous,attitudes and behaviours towards women. It is just hidden under a posh pretence.

Its not about the boy growing up to be gay. At all, it never crossed my mind at all.

User183737
Funny enough you aren't totally wrong, but I am from Hull based council estates, 3rd poorest in Britain, and I could not care less.
I grow up on FSM in a rough comp, head down bog type, yes it was horrific if you where classed as gay.
Kids go to same school, 30 years later, both would be horrified if you called some one gay, their grannie did, they replied is that supposed to be an insult.
It us, I am 49 and the generations above who haven't moved with the times, school is still firmly WC.

Also it always been ok to be a TOMBOY, hasn't it for girls. No one ever bats an eyelid, but the same people would be offend if their son was thought to be wearing a dress.

Like in 1967, we as a society need to change not the OP son. Wether my sons turn out to be straight, gay, bisexual, trans or even asexual, all I care is they are happy and are well mannered and polite. I know they are the last two, I just hope they find happiness.
A friend committed suicide, because his DAD, upper MC bank manager couldn't cope with him been GAY, we "loved as a mate" we where all sink estate kids, WHY? was his dad such a fool, that he lost his son, because he believe rubbish peddled by ignorant t**ts,and sadly even today people peddle it, from so called religions too.
Surely it should be live and let live.

Good words user. I havent referred to sexuality, for me its about provoking reaction of boys wearing frocks in an eyeroll 'look at the efforts they make through their kid to prove a point'. For me, it is a deliberate effort to be different for the sake of it. Not condemning for being gay or feminine at all. If that makes sense. But i like your points.

Op your ds is 7? You already hsve him showing great resilience and hoping he would stick up for those being bullied?? He’s 7 kids of that age havnt built up resilience to any degree really.

That’s a hell of a lot of expectations you have going on their for a kid whose barely out of infant school.

I am thinking he is your oldest? Just be careful he’s not forefilling your expectations of the son you want, just like dads who shout on the touchlne at football because they think their son will play for England. Or mums who put their dds into beauty pageants.

He's not being bullied seasaw. He does stick up for other children though. He is very kind.

I don't know how many times or ways I can tell you that I have no interest at all in him wearing a dress. I don't know why it's so hard to understand.

No I understand that but by allowing him to you are most definatly setting him apart from his peers and I would 98% think he will be teased or potentially bullied in the future. Sorry but it’s true. High School and teenage years are hard enough why make them harder

Just because a 7 year old wants to do something doesn’t mean he should

I don't agree seasawride. Changing for bullies is not something I'm going to encourage my children to do.

For another perspective, I have ASD and was constantly told 'don't do that, that's not normal' by my parents. To be clear I don't mean antisocial behaviour but the sorts of things mentioned in this thread. How I liked to dress. How I liked to have my hair. Socks with sandals, too - I hated wearing sandals without them because even the most comfortable sandals really hurt and blistered my feet. A small price to pay for conforming, according to my mother. Also interests I had, like reading and learning languages for fun, that weren't even 'not normal' so much as 'not things my parents would do/enjoy' so I was ridiculed for doing those too.

It made me an incredibly anxious young adult who assumed everything I liked and did that hadn't been approved by someone else was probably 'not normal' and so I had to keep it to myself because I was such an abnormal person. I still didn't fit in at school despite the efforts to make me conform, but the message I got was that I wasn't accepted for who I was at home either.

Much later and people generally think I'm a confident person because I do what I like and if other people think it's weird I honestly don't care. If they comment, they're the rude ones, but it very rarely happens. For instance, I wear flat shoes to every wedding or other formal event I go to. Contrary to what you'd think by reading MN threads on the topic, nobody has ever said a word about it to me. And if they look and think it's unfashionable or weird or whatever - so bloody what? I have comfortable feet.

But it took me the better part of thirty years to get there.

Sorry, a bit late, but my daughter was exactly the same, @ittooshallpass. From the age of about three she wanted her hair cut short and wore "boys'" clothes and shoes (and loved clothes shopping), I resisted it to start with but gave up, she had very strong opinions! She too, wore a suit to match her brother's at our wedding, not a dress (and picked it out especially, her brother wasn't fussed). In year 6, she decided to start growing her hair and now in Y8 only wears "girls'" clothes. She did get a bit fed up with people mistaking her for a boy and towards the end of junior school would never go to toilet at school because she worried someone would tell her she was in the wrong toilets, but wanted to stay as she was almost up until she hit puberty. She is who she is.

I agree with the fact we shouldnt change for bullies but in fact you are changing your son buy offering him dresses to wear. In any other household hed be in normal clothes. So there would be nothing to change. You are using the behaviour (putting him in dresses) to create a point, rather than the point being about bullying, and someone whose natural behaviours being causatory (as in, your son is bullied because he wears a dress).
Its like some weird social experiment with your son at the centre, and the only person to suffer if it doesnt olay out the way you want it to, is him. That should matter.
You have set the hypothesis as, a child who is encouraged to be themself will be resilient and confident enough to reject bullies (and overcome racism for non white children).
I also think your expectations are too high and that you are totally projecting your own experiences of bullying.

user
I not sure whether you approve of my posts or are being rude?

What do you all think of the many, or it seemed many, of the schoolboys in primary and secondary, who where banned from wearing shorts, all took to wearing skirts. I thought typical British
kids, using the rules to break rules.

Once again who told my Ds he couldn't play netball, shouldn't wear pink. Boys don't wear dresses. Parents and men, because that's what people in power do, they make rules and ban people from doing stuff.
YES MAINLY WOMEN, WITH VOTES AND EQUAL RULES, but also boys, don't wear pink, skirts, dresses, make up,etc.

Why?
Maybe not you, but most men, honestly would tell you it will be my son will be seen as gay or worst still actually be gay. They also fear it will reflect on them, their masculinity will be questioned. You said so about your roots and my WC class roots.

I don't put him in dresses. Again I don't know how many times I can say that. He chooses them

I really don't know how I would get a 7 year old to wear a dress against his will. I also don:'t know why I would do that.

User, where was i rude? I said i liked your points about gay fear etc. But i dont think this is that, ir maybe im overlapping these 2 v similar threads.

Before I leave, for tonight can I ask you all a question, all the pp who disagree with the OP thoughts.

If your Ds came home tomorrow, with a letter from school or holiday activity group, and said you Ds can play Netball or Football for next year or this summer. He says Mum & Dad I want to play netball.
How many would let them play netball, especially when he is the only one out of 25 schools in the league. All is mates are in the football team too.

I bet none of you if you answer honestly.
Then if no, honestly why not?
Because we did, and yes we and him took stick, but he loved it and was bloody brilliant at it. He is good at sport anyway, but Netball is still the only sport he every won Player of the year at, it built his confidence, even when his team was losing every rugby match they played that season.
So netball, helped make my son a better person, would you all have risked it

He chooses them because you offer him that choice, so you do put him in them. Same as if my kid pointed at, say, a haloween costume so i bought it. Except it isnt halloween so everyone is like wtf? Yes its ok for them to wear in principle but there will be negative comments, i dont want them to have that complication, so i wouldnt let it be an option. This is becoming circular, im tired, so goodnight.

Ok op I honestly hope your ds doesn’t attract negative attention anyway.

I would argue not about letting them play netball, but why a boy was allowed to play on a girls team when he has clear sexual characteristics-testosterone, strength height weight etc-which give him an advantage. However i also think it is a good achievement for him. As a feminist i think womens spaces should be protected. So no id have said no to my son and encouraged him to do something else. Note not something lesd feminine, that doesnt come into it. Men do ballet, fine. Men do gymnastics and dance, fine. But a man in a womans team to mr on principle=not fine. However im glad it worked for him.

I do allow him to pick his own clothes. To me it really isn't a big deal to let him choose what he actually wants (rather than what bullies might dictate he should want).

Everyone attracts negative attention at some point I think Seasawride.

Well to be fair op we have come full circle and will agree to disagree. Wish your son the best.