To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

Stop being condescending for just a minute, and read what people are actually typing.

There isn't a visceral reaction to a boy wearing a dress, there is a reaction to a parent or parents who are not , for their own reasons, fully explaining to their 7 year old the full ramifications of what he is doing.

He is at an age where he needs guidance, not to be set up for a fall by those he trusts the most.

Stop with the straw man arguments about dance classes etc. That's a totally different thing and you know it.

I'm thinking you have started this thread to try and convince people you are the coolest parent on Mumsnet, and the rest of us are bully enablers and that are restricting our children's creativity.

Tell you what, you crack on and the rest of us will look after our kids until they are old enough to fully comprehend the results of actions such as wearing dresses to school when you are a 7 year old boy.

It's for adults to make social change, not kids. Let adult men start going to work, nights out etc in dresses and see the reaction. Don't try and make change through your kids, school life can be hard enough as it is, don't put unnecessary burdens on them. Why should kids get to decide what they want to wear to school anyway, within reason they have to wear what they're told.

I think we're saying essentially the same thing @Whyyounoeatmypie but you're talking about much more serious issues, which I understand. It's not a matter of blithely ignoring what other people are like or the potential danger that there is in the world, it's a matter of how it's dealt with. What bothers me is that almost automatic approach of saying that the child who's in danger should change - giving even more power to the bullies. Of course a child has to stay safe and in a dangerous situation steps have to be taken to guard against people who are simply out for blood. In the long run though a person hiding who they are/what they want is not a solution and it's not good for that person.

I think this is very well said: 'I'd want to help him navigate living as his true self in an extremely imperfect world'

'I'm thinking you have started this thread to try and convince people you are the coolest parent on Mumsnet, and the rest of us are bully enablers and that are restricting our children's creativity.'

I don't get where the 'cool' references are coming from - I don't feel at all 'cool.' I'm not even sure what you mean by that. I think there are some very narrow minded bully enablers on this thread though, definitely and I have no doubts about saying that. I think it's very likely that the people who talked about talking behind his back and laughing at him are talking about what they would do in that situation.

I don't think wearing a dress has anything to do with creativity - what link do you think there is?

HE DOES NOT WEAR DRESSES TO SCHOOL. I sometimes think I'm not actually typing in English!

Right so let kids wear anything they like, pierce anywhere they like, tattoos at 7 yes why not. Let’s let them watch tv all day, let’s let them eat cake all day and tell them if they want to spit belch and fart at will anywhere they can as its great to be yourself and not to worry about societal norms.

Tell you what let’s not bother to council, guide, navigate their way through childhood or even omg say no to them. Let their free spirits soar.

If he doesn’t wear a dress to school but wears dresses outside people will be aware. Just saying

I don't think 7 year old choose their clothes. Not in my world anyway. Sorry OP but you remind me of The Modern Parents from Viz. You may be too young to know what I'm talking about.

It's for adults to make social change, not kids. Let adult men start going to work, nights out etc in dresses and see the reaction. Don't try and make change through your kids, school life can be hard enough as it is, don't put unnecessary burdens on them.
This! ^^
It is for adults (and teens who are old enough to make an informed choice) to walk the walk.
It's for adults to stick their necks out.
It's for adults* to live their ideals.

It's not for adults to use their kids as vessels for their own agendas and to support their own self-image whilst writing off anyone who disagrees or challenges as 'bully enablers'.

How old is your son OP?

'If he doesn’t wear a dress to school but wears dresses outside people will be aware. Just saying'

Ooh they'll be aware? Wow. So what?

Spaghetti,

Wearing a dress is not him ‘living as his true self I am imperfect world’. It is him making a very middle class statement to please his mother and because he lives in the kind of area and goes to the kind of school where he can.

I restrict my children’s choices because I know the implications of their choices and they don’t. No screens at mealtime, have to eat balanced meals...my god it makes me sound positively fascist.

When was the last time you fancied going out dressed as a superhero? Or to a formal dinner in shorts and an old t shirt? Nope? Thought not. As adults we restrict our own choices all the time and, as parents, our job is to do the same for our children.

If they want to be rebels or trendsetters later on, knowing the full implications, kudos to them.

I think it's very likely that the people who talked about talking behind his back and laughing at him are talking about what they would do in that situation
Or we have been in the real world enough to know that the world isn't ideal.

If I saw a child dressed up as opposite stereotypes, I wouldn't be thinking anything negative about the child, nor would I judge the child (just like I wouldn't judge a child called princess paul tinkerbella sparkles). But I would be questioning their PARENTS.

'I don't think 7 year old choose their clothes. Not in my world anyway'

Well in my world they do. Everyone's different.

Fair enough Larry. My children understand the difference between wearing certain clothes for school and formal events and just choosing what they want in their free time. You restrict in all cases, I don't. As I say, everyone's different.

'But I would be questioning their PARENTS.'

Fair enough, question away. Why would I care?

Maisy

Spot on.

sphagetti

Honestly I despair I really do. Your so what comment summons it up. You should care love. That’s what parents should do.

I care about my child. I don't care about people who look at what a child wears and judges. Why would I?

Why would I care?
You wouldn't. We've established this.

The whole world is full of unicorns and sparkles and anyone who says otherwise is a mean and nasty bully enabler who lives in a cave and comes out at night to crush the spirits of children.

*Support his choices. Arm him for the consequences. Be prepared to go to battle for him if that's what he wants.

The negative responses are just another version of "don't go out dressed like that." He might change his mind - which is perfectly understandable.*

Seconding this. I also think saying it's just a kneejerk reaction about boys in dresses is dismissive. Many parents want to avoid as much suffering for our kids as possible, part of that can be not wanting our kids to be the nail that sticks out because that's the one that's going to be hit. There is a balance between idealism and realism. I think it's really disingenuous to act like anyone has no limits on what they choose to wear. I mean, at 7 he's limited by what you and other adults choose to buy him and there have been seriously dozens of threads on here on whether or not going out in pyjamas is acceptable for adults so even adults have socially acceptable limits.

I spent years supporting and fighting for my older son who wanted long hair like his father and to dress how he wants. He jumped through a lot of official hoops to do so. At 7, he was mostly supported by those around him, the odd comments but mostly he didn't understand the comments or care about it. At 11, he took wallpaper shears and almost scalped himself because he was tired of fighting, tired of people saying he looks/talks/acts like a girl, tired of having to fight to be seen as the boy he is. Even the supportive people's comments got to him because he still felt people mostly spoke about how it's not typical for a boy to do that, but that's okay for him if he wants or it's okay if he's a girl...

Now a teenager, my son doesn't blame me or his father for that. I just asked him and he says pretty much what he said then - short hair in certain styles and these clothes mean people see him as a boy and also "it's cooler, mum". He's now known for making and wearing costume bits and openly tells people when he does it's because he wants to but also knows that even if he doesn't see the reason, I or other adults can restrict him from doing so. Just as I sometimes don't let any of my kids - regardless of sex - wear dresses or skirts to particular places because it can be impractical.

People being rude is inevitable - humans aren't angels. Adults, with more life experience and typically wanting to shield kids from harm, sometimes choose to avoid things that we know will make things difficult. It's not about letting the bullies win, it's knowing that if our kids do get bullied - no matter how I or others support them - the damage will be done and really, life is about picking your battles. For you and your son, that might be wearing dresses. For others, it's letting girls shave their heads. Not everyone wants to fight those battles and they aren't less than for steering their kids accordingly at 7 when a lot of kids are both cruel and also really sensitive to other's comments. Some boys may be happy to put up with a question about their wearing a dress or comments about dancing, not all boys are.

'The whole world is full of unicorns and sparkles and anyone who says otherwise is a mean and nasty bully enabler who lives in a cave and comes out at night to crush the spirits of children.'

I have to ask - where is this stuff coming from? Are you reading my posts? Because if you were you'd see that I'd said I'm aware people are mean. Heck you yourself have a judgey streak - and I imagine it's not a kind judgement. Mean people exist. They exist no matter what. But they don't control my life.

You should care because those people will be possibly targeting your child and as a parent it’s up to you to protect your child from this.

You seem more concerned with fighting the worlds wrongs than your child. He is not old enough to be your trail blaizer. Your job is to protect him until he is old enough to understand the concequences of his choices.

In my view you are being wilfully obtuse and denying reality

Wow. The narrow mindedness of this thread is mind blowing. To think there are truly people out there that are so intolerant and obsessesed with societal rules is incredible. The kid has chosen to wear a dress. So fucking what? What difference does it make? People laugh at him. Also so what? What’s this obsession with gendering things? Yesterday I heard that some men won’t eat salad because it’s “girly”? WTAF? How sad is our society that people are denied basic things like salad and dresses because they’ve been so heavily gendered. It’s tragic. Let people laugh. If the kid is happy and comfortable then it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference what other people think. A lot of the posters on this thread need to get over themselves.

But they don’t control my life

We are not discussing your life though are we?

Maybe that’s the issue. It’s not about you. And I mean that kindly op.

WTF
Some of us just think that social norms are what they are, socialisation is strong and it's all well and good smashing norms to smithereens when you can make an informed decision to, but placing a child at risk of ridicule for no obvious benefit is more about the parent than the child's wishes (however much it is dressed up as 'but i let them choose...')

Your post is very sensible DN4 and your son sounds a lovely boy.

The dress thing is a total red herring tbh - people have become totally fixated on it. My main point was that people seemed to see bullying as inevitable and jump to a child changing as the automatic best course of action. I totally agree if a child is exhausted from others being assholes, it's very sensible for them to decide that they just want to take an easier option. What I'm not keen on is the idea that the easier option is the only option and that difference must be prevented - telling the child to change to fit in right from the get go.
If my DS came along and said 'I'm not wearing dresses people are too mean' I'd talk it through with him and I'd totally support him in making that decision.

The interesting thing about this is that there are two issues. Whether such a young child should have freedom to wear whatever he wants , because that will lead to some interesting choices later you might feel unable not to comment on. I am thinking of thinks that might upset you, like misogynist rap lyrics on a t shirt. or rascism. The second is that by and large children prefer to "fit in" with their peer group and not be different. Children are very like chimpanzees in that they will often home in no "different" and have to be taught to empathise. It does not come easily. What you are describing as free choice sounds ever so slightly encouraged. Eg are there dresses in his cupboard or is he borrowing someone else's. Your post is interesting and complex and seems to be reflecting you, not your child. In particular seems to be courting comment. Is it fair on your child? In some cases, they are naive about some of the unpleasantness of our society and need a bit of protection, esp age 7. By all means challenge the norms, but you do it yourself. We all wear clothes to give a strong message to people around us about what sort of person we are. That is why certain clothes say different things for different purposes, eg army, health professionals, social workers, casual friends country workers. Not ony are these for practical purposes but also to give clients the message that we know what we are doing. Other clothes can be alarming and even aggressive which is why mass piercing and tattoos can get in the way of professional behaviour