To be surprised at how much bullying is treated as inevitable?

[Spaghettijumper]

On threads where, say, a boy is wearing 'girly' clothing or is in some way different, there seems to be a lot of responses saying 'he/she will be bullied' as though that's a good reason not to do it/not to allow the child to do it.

It surprises me - do people really live in such fear of other people's responses?

My son wears dresses and yes people make silly comments but there's no way I'd say he shouldn't wear dresses because of that - surely that's just teaching him that other people get to decide what he wears? He just brushes the comments off and over time no one even notices the dresses any more. The vast majority of people say absolutely nothing, or even compliment him on his dresses - there are a lot of kind and friendly people in the world!

In my experience, no matter what you do, someone will have a negative reaction/a nasty comment - if you live your life anticipating the negativity and trying to avoid it, there's a lot you'll miss out on.

AIBU to think the response to possible bullying isn't to go ahead and give the bullies what they want ahead of time (ie total conformity) but to develop the resilience to say 'yes you don't like what I do, but I really don't care'?

Good luck OP, you sound a lovely mum.
User183737, sorry, I have had so many people disagree with my thoughts on gays and letting Ds do non boys stuff, you lost the plot.

On HIGH5's Netball England says "its an entry game for primary school kids, mixed and there can be up to 3 boys in any squad, but only two on the court at any time"
Funny as netball is non contact and non moving with ball, and having tried it bloody hard, most boys are worse then the girls.
Never understood mums saying your Ds can't play HIGH5's its a girls sport, whilst girls play football, rugby and cricket in mixed primary school games and they are contact games.

I think there is a lot of hypocrite's, when it comes to dealing with this, its okay for girls to be encouraged to break down stereotypes, no such thing as boys toys, no such thing as boys only subjects. But when people like the OP and my Ds what to do a girls thing, no that's bad. I remember wanting to do Cooking for CSE in 1983, but was forced to do metalwork, even though my parents requested, because school said boys don't do cookery, though girls did metalwork. I got a U. Great, but I can still bake cakes and cook for my family, not fair.

He chooses them because you offer him that choice, so you do put him in them. Same as if my kid pointed at, say, a haloween costume so i bought it. Except it isnt halloween so everyone is like wtf? Yes its ok for them to wear in principle but there will be negative comments, i dont want them to have that complication, so i wouldnt let it be an option. This is becoming circular, im tired, so goodnight

From experience, nobody bats an eyelid at a small child in fancy dress at any time of the year.

My child decided to get her hair cut after seeing emma watson in an interview on tv. I had misgivings but have always said her hair, her choice, so didn’t let on.

We get lots of negative comments about her being a “boy in a dress” from small minded people.

Should I not have let her get her hair cut because of those people? She loves it, it looks great, so why should she do something she doesn’t want to (grow it) because of bullies?

I have been told I should “let” her, or even make her grow it to avoid judgement.

So tell me why I should? If it is not OK for a boy to wear a dress, what do I do with a child who gets exactly the same comments and judgements, but is a girl?

Child coming home with a letter to do netball isn't the same. I did gymnastics and we had boys who did gymnastics even though classes were girl dominated. It's not about someone doing 'a boy hobby ot a girl hobby'.

Same with hair. Child wants short hair. Parent can decide if that's a reaosnable request. My guess is if your daughter wanted neon blue spikey hair you'd have said no. Even then, your DC wanted short hair after seeing it on another woman. They're learning from their environment.

The 'but they want to conveniently wear the only item of exclusively gendered clothing outside of underwear so we let them' falls down to me, in the same way people who claim they'll raise a child without gender. Children are inquisitive. They'll know that a dress is only seen on girls. They'll see that it's on a girl hanger and yet people will say their child hasn't noticed or asked, or even wondered why they are wearing it. Kids ask questions on anything and everything so why would they passively accept the idea.that nothing is gendered? Even saying 'but i told them they can have whatever they like' isn't neutral.

It seems odd to me that gender and socialisation is such a part of society that people deny it with regards to children and claim their children just happen to want certain things that are the opposite with zero prompting at all.

Well guess you live in a very specific area of the country op because where I live a boy in a dress would indeed recievr comments and guarantee none of them kind.

It may be called RL. It may not be right but that doesn’t make it a fact

The netball thing is interesting. I am inclined to think that at least one sport that is officially girls only is a drop in the ocean compared to all the ones that are de facto boys only if not officially so is a good, not a bad thing! I remember when ds was a very enthusiastic tag rugby player and there needed to be 3 girls on a team for tournaments how difficult it was sometimes to find 3 girls.

'The 'but they want to conveniently wear the only item of exclusively gendered clothing outside of underwear so we let them' falls down to me, in the same way people who claim they'll raise a child without gender. Children are inquisitive. They'll know that a dress is only seen on girls. They'll see that it's on a girl hanger and yet people will say their child hasn't noticed or asked, or even wondered why they are wearing it. Kids ask questions on anything and everything so why would they passively accept the idea.that nothing is gendered? Even saying 'but i told them they can have whatever they like' isn't neutral.'

Of course he knows that girls wear dresses and boys don't - where have I said that he doesn't?? He still wants to wear them. I don't know why but there you go. I honestly don't see why that's so incredibly hard to understand. I have never suggested he wear a dress, or encouraged him to. Why would I? Apart from ensuring he's warm/cool enough I don't really get involved in what he wears at all - he chooses at Tesco then chooses what to wear each day.

Can I just point out here that it's a piece of clothing? He's not taking drugs or running on railway tracks or something, he's just wearing something. I didn't realise the whole thread would get so derailed into people telling me over and over and over that I'd done something I didn't do (make him wear a dress) when the thread wasn't even about the dresses at all really!

Anyway, I'm bored of stating the same things a million times so if you want to believe I'm somehow making a 7 year old boy wear a dress, go ahead. I have no idea how I would do it, but many posters seem to think I bother going to that pointless effort for some reason.

My original point was that I think it's a shame that children are told to change themselves because of bullies - that essentially bullies control other people and parents assist in that. That doesn't just apply to clothes - it applies to lots of other things. It amazes me how fearful some adults are - they won't speak in front of other people, they won't try anything new - it's such a shame because I think there's no need to be so cautious all the time, for the most part people are lovely. Yes there are a few dickheads that comment and are nasty but I don't think it's right to live your life kowtowing to them and fearing them all the time, especially when you're an adult and can control your situation a lot more.

'Of course he knows that girls wear dresses and boys don't - where have I said that he doesn't?? He still wants to wear them. I don't know why but there you go. I honestly don't see why that's so incredibly hard to understand.'

What is 'incredibly hard to understand' is the fact that, according to you, there was no discussion between you at all about this. As I and another poster have said, 7 year olds are generally incredibly curious. So, unless your son is an exception, there must have been some sort of discussion between you about why dresses were in the girls' section. The devil is in the detail of this discussion.

The devil is in the detail of this discussion.
Totally agree with you on this.

There are many ways to be a boy and many ways to be a girl. Masculinity and femininity shouldn't be viewed as narrow stereotypes. It's not about boy hobbies or girl hobbies or who has what length hair.

It's parents who claim neutrality or present neutrality (they just happenes to decide...) in a world where gender socialisation is rife and act like it doesnt have any impact on them or their children because they are so much more right on than the rest of us lowly folk who see the world as it is.

I want my children to be clean, polite, kind and friendly and I will ask them to change behaviour that's rude or disruptive. But for anything else I want them to feel that I'll support them in being who they are, even if others try to bully them for it. I think your family should be the people who just accept you rather than the people who tell you to be different in order to fit in.

I'm just amazed how many people think it is a parents job to restrict the choices of their children to those that fit gender stereotypes. According to this thread it is a dereliction of parental duties to allow your child to wear clothes they like or do activities they like on the basis of gender stereotypes.

Who the hell still needs playground bullies when parents will do all the hard work for them! Is the idea to eradicate the need for school bullying by taking it all into the home?

I'd much rather my DD encountered the odd horrible individual out there in the world telling her she likes the wrong things, than that I tell her she's wrong for liking what she likes all day every day.

Does this all extend to sexuality? Because I can guarantee you its still hard to be openly gay in secondary school. Are all the conform-bots on this thread still planing to tell their kids to hide their sexuality in case they get bullied?

Sorry, posted too soon..I was going to say ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ this with bells on

“I'd much rather my DD encountered the odd horrible individual out there in the world telling her she likes the wrong things, than that I tell her she's wrong for liking what she likes all day every day.“

I think I have very rarely been on a thread with so much willful misunderstanding.......

'When youre an adult you can control the situation more'
Exactly. So why is your husband not making the same choice-at least he is,aware of the social implications. Your son is being thrown to the wolves

I know exactly what you mean betrand

I would imagine they are the same types of people as the person on another thread who was annoyed at a work dress code meant natural hair and no piercings as it was apparently forcing people to compromise their identity. Or also get into arguments with school about why their DC should be allowed neon hair because 'it doesnt affect their learning and who are they to say what a natural hair colour is. Neon yellow is the same colour as the eyeball of my child's spirit animal'.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that lots of abstract chatter about people's identity and feels is almost always aligned to superficial elements of appearance and any challenge or debate around that comes back to 'but feels, you are all so mean'.

Meanwhile most people manage just fine to have interesting debates about gender, socialsiation, do a range of activities etc without the need to prove their child can do the opposite stereotype.

Sorry, posted too soon..I was going to say ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ this with bells on. Now I'm out of signal and about to join the Underground, but hopefully this post will update soon...

The irony is that 'alternative' is, indeed, mainstream.

'What is 'incredibly hard to understand' is the fact that, according to you, there was no discussion between you at all about this. As I and another poster have said, 7 year olds are generally incredibly curious. So, unless your son is an exception, there must have been some sort of discussion between you about why dresses were in the girls' section. The devil is in the detail of this discussion.'

Are you reading my posts at all Larry? Or just making things up? Did you see the post where I talked to him about how people are funny about boys wearing girls' clothes? He knows that dresses are in the girls' section because girls normally wear them. What else should I say to him? 'You can't wear them because you're a boy?'

Well, yes. I would have

'It's parents who claim neutrality or present neutrality (they just happenes to decide...) in a world where gender socialisation is rife and act like it doesnt have any impact on them or their children because they are so much more right on than the rest of us lowly folk who see the world as it is.'

You seem to be having your own conversation with a made-up person in your head @MaisyPops! I never said a word about neutrality and our house isn't neutral at all really - DD wears pretty much 100% 'girly' clothes and I wear dresses and make up. I never said anything about being 'right on' or implied that you were lowly. Maybe that's your own insecurities talking?

So I should prevent him from wearing what he wants to wear?

What else should I say to him? 'You can't wear them because you're a boy?'
Saying or giving the impression that sticking a boy in a dress is more neutral than saying the above is the issue.

Both are statements. You seem to be presenting your view as somehow organic and natural and how you are just going along with whatever.

A 12/13 year old boy making an informed decision to wear a dress is different to a 7 year old whose parent says 'yeah sure wear a dress because i'd rather you were teased than consider the world for how it is'.

Where are all these grown men who think I'll stick a pencil skirt and heels on this morning? I'll wear a dress to the shops because it's so hot and a dress is comfy and practical? How many dads so we see saying 'gosh it's warm. Come on son. We'll both put our dresses on and go to the park because we don't need no socialisation'?

It's always children who are the ones put through the potential teasing, usually encouraged by adults who often wouldn't walk the walk themselves.

Spaghetti,

I clearly did not notice that post. The word 'funny' says it all really. You could have said 'most people expect boys not to wear dresses but you can do what you want' or something like that.

Clearly the subliminal message was boys SHOULD wear dresses and that is certainly what he would have heard.

You seem to be having your own conversation with a made-up person in your head@MaisyPops! I never said a word about neutrality and our house isn't neutral at all really - DD wears pretty much 100% 'girly' clothes and I wear dresses and make up.
I've not said you have a gender neutral house.

I'm saying you appear to present the decision to allow your boy to wear a dress as some kind of neutral act and you just go along with whatever when actually it's not a neutral act at all.

I didn't say it's a neutral act - I've said it's an act of supporting my child in him choosing what he wants, rather than expecting him to change in case a bully might tell him to change at some point in the future.

Melon,

'I'm just amazed how many people think it is a parents job to restrict the choices of their children to those that fit gender stereotypes. According to this thread it is a dereliction of parental duties to allow your child to wear clothes they like or do activities they like on the basis of gender stereotypes.'

I don't think anyone has said this. However, where 'challenging gender stereotypes' confers zero advantage but merely opens one up to ridicule, it is pretty pointless. A girl having short hair and wearing boys clothes to do activities easily, that is fantastic. A young boy wearing a restrictive garment merely to make a point, far less fantastic!

I think only one poster has spoken of girls' and boys' activities and that was in a gender-stereotype challenging way.

'Does this all extend to sexuality? Because I can guarantee you its still hard to be openly gay in secondary school. Are all the conform-bots on this thread still planing to tell their kids to hide their sexuality in case they get bullied?'

No, it doesn't and it is you who are now applying stereotypes. Wearing a dress does not make you gay.