Friends sending their DS to school in a pinafore.

[RelentlessSylvia]

Friends (I'm pals with both halves of the couple) have a DS, 4.

He's starting primary after the summer and they've bought him pinafores rather than shorts or trousers. They've always bought him a range of clothes up to now - dresses, skirts, trousers, shorts, pink, blue and every other colour - and he's picked what he wants to wear every day. He has no concept that garments are gendered and just likes to wear what he likes to wear. I think this is great.

But they haven't bought a range of uniform items, they've bought him pinafores and tights. AIBU to think they are making a statement at the expense of their DS's choice? Shorts and trousers are, for better or worse, much less gendered items than dresses.

He is a lovely boy and a testament to their parenting. Both parents are proudly unorthodox and brilliant, brave people. But AIBU to think they're kinda using their son as a flag to wave to the rest of the school community, rather than giving him the option of being low-key?

Nursery have previously expressed concerns that my friends were forcing their DS to wear dresses. They weren't. He chooses his clothes from a range. It may be that they've said 'which style of uniform do you want?' and he's made a choice but sadly there is a huge context to gender and clothing that he isn't aware of, so it isn't a genuine choice?

AIB horrible and judgemental? I love that this kid can be who he wants to be. I just worry that he's going to become an object of ridicule and derision on his first day.

I went to a progressive school. I doubt anyone much would care about the pinafore or notice much really.
I assume the op is taking about a state school though.

Wait. Are the parents that pair of twats in Brighton? With the kids who went on This Morning. The off grid folk or some attention seeker shite title?

starfish but does your child know whether they're a boy or a girl?

starfish but it doesn't depend on how he feels whether he's a boy or a girl. If he's a boy he's a boy, his feelings won't change that. I'd be interested to know what makes kids feel they can be a boy one minute then a girl the next. Is it a sudden need to want to play with girls toys, put makeup on etc? I thought we wanted to do away with gender conditioning. Imo kids are confused this way because parents are allowing them to think it's normal to be able to swap in and out of genders. It isn't.

I think the parents damn well want it to come to a head in school to be honest - the first comment from a child, or god-forbid a staff member - and they'll be straight off practising their Daily Mail sad face for the local papers and crying discrimination.

I kind of hope it passes completely unnoticed - no one praises them at the school gate for their enlightened parenting, no one comments at all and the child comes home wanting a pair of trousers of their own volition and the idiot parents are just stood there really disappointed their attempts for a reaction fail completely.

Any young child who thinks they can be a boy or a girl depending on how they feel when they wake up in the morning has been fed this nonsense by their right on parents.
Never before in human history was the notion that sex isn’t a constant given to children too young to understand what bollocks that is.

That was to Starfish

@Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar that's bloody well put! Well done!

Jesus @Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar

I’m stealing that. That’s absolutely spot on.

Poor child , your friends are dicks of the highest order .

I thought we wanted to do away with gender conditioning. Imo kids are confused this way because parents are allowing them to think it's normal to be able to swap in and out of genders. It isn't.

This. The concept of gender isn't woke or progressive or enlightened. It's the exact opposite. Gender is the old-fashioned regressive nonsense telling kids that short hair=boy & dress=girl.

What would be really progressive & enlightened would be ditching gender altogether, thus eliminating all the social constructs & stereotypes currently attached to biological sex.

What would be really progressive & enlightened would be ditching gender altogether, thus eliminating all the social constructs & stereotypes currently attached to biological sex.

Agreed. Given the outcry on this thread over the feared consequences of a boy wearing a dress to school (not to mention the condemnation of the parents and invidious comments levelled at them for letting him do so), how do you think what you describe above might happen?

I think we'd need a massive pushback against organisations like Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence & Stonewall, & their insistence to kids that being a girl or boy is about feelings rather than biology.

We'd need to reinforce the idea that if you have a vulva you're a girl, if you have a penis, you're a boy, and it's absolutely fine to wear whatever you like, play whatever you like & look however you like.

Sadly, given the foothold organisations like this seem to have gained & the stereotypical messages they're peddling, I don't think it's going to be easy.

Fascicle, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Nobody (or hardly anyone, it's a long thread) has said that a little boy shouldn't wear a pinafore because it is intrinsically wrong for a boy to wear a piece of cloth cut one way rather than another way.

What most of us are saying is that we are where we are. There are conventions. Most of us stick to them. If you don't, other people notice and may comment, poke fun, even react violently in some cases.

Given this, why would you push a 4yo who already has trouble with social interaction forward as the standardbearer for the great pushback against gender stereotypes?

Why not let an adult take that role, in the full knowledge and understanding of what they'd be up against?

If kids have sensible parents they'll be fine. For instance if my dgc said to their parents. I don't want to be a girl today, i feel like i'm a boy, they'd get a straightforward answer, "well you can't be a boy, it's impossible, you were born a girl and nothing will ever change that"
But if you get parents who answer, "you can be whatever you want to be" then they're doing their kids a massive disservice and imo are failing as a parent. Parents like that are not only confusing their own kids but are confusing other kids who are expected to accept the bullshit nonsense.

Exactly coolcalm it's like living in a topsy turkey universe with this no gender agenda.

Sadly, given the foothold organisations like this seem to have gained & the stereotypical messages they're peddling, I don't think it's going to be easy.

This would only be the start of it by the way, I know we'd need to go a lot further. But it's groups like these that are making people think that misogynist sex stereotypes are cool & that there's such things as male & female brains. Show them up for what they are & that's half the fight won already.

EmpressOfSpartacus
I think we'd need a massive pushback against organisations like Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence & Stonewall, & their insistence to kids that being a girl or boy is about feelings rather than biology.

The oldest of those three organisations was established 30 years ago - you can't blame them for social constructs and stereotypes known to go back thousands of years. There is no mention of OP's friends' son being trans or identifying as a girl - we only know that he sometimes likes wearing dresses. I think you are trying to make this into something it is not. I would have thought one small part of the solution would be to do away with separate male/female dress codes across all organisations so that nobody bats an eyelid at clothing choices typically associated with one sex.

Gasp0de
Fascicle, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

I very much doubt it.

What most of us are saying is that we are where we are. There are conventions. Most of us stick to them.

Thereby reinforcing stereotypes and perpetuating the status quo.

Given this, why would you push a 4yo who already has trouble with social interaction forward as the standardbearer for the great pushback against gender stereotypes?

There is inadequate information to show that this is what the parents are doing. The OP might wonder about this, but has not constructed a case to show that it is. The OP has also made a number of positive comments about her friends and their parenting. I don't think there's any evidence to show that they don't have their son's wellbeing at heart or any indication that they wouldn't/couldn't modify decisions if their son wasn't happy.

The oldest of those three organisations was established 30 years ago - you can't blame them for social constructs and stereotypes known to go back thousands of years.

No, I'm not saying they created the social constructs. But they're doing an excellent job of reinforcing them & making them "cool".

I would have thought one small part of the solution would be to do away with separate male/female dress codes across all organisations so that nobody bats an eyelid at clothing choices typically associated with one sex.

Allowing everyone to wear skirts or trousers as they choose, regardless of sex? Yes, I think that's a good idea too.

if my dgc said to their parents. I don't want to be a girl today, i feel like i'm a boy, they'd get a straightforward answer, "well you can't be a boy, it's impossible, you were born a girl and nothing will ever change that"
But if you get parents who answer, "you can be whatever you want to be" then they're doing their kids a massive disservice and imo are failing as a parent.
This.
You simply cannot identify as both, fluidly, and expect others to know what to do with you. Boys are boys and girls are girls. I dread to think in 20 years time what the state of the future adults will be like, who have received hormone treatments in their teens while their bodies are immature. There is no proof that these are safe, they could be causing cancers that we have never seen before. All for a few organisations pushing for genderless society and the ability to change.
I agree that a 4 year old with autism is being thrown to the lions by irresponsible parents who should know better, but who are using their son to play a social experiment whilst pretending to be cool and forward thinking.

I would have thought one small part of the solution would be to do away with separate male/female dress codes across all organisations so that nobody bats an eyelid at clothing choices typically associated with one sex
And if this were to happen the 'statement maker' parents and individuals would find another avenue to be 'unique'.
When it becomes mainstream to be genderless, what will they have to use then? I'm thinking of many, usually male, adults who wear obviously extreme female clothing; grayson perry for instance. If such clothing is an expression of individuality then if everyone starts to wear it how do people become individual then?

Sorry, I haven’t had time to read the whole thread 😬

Does his dad wear skirts and dresses?

This is how your know mn is very white and vey middle class theirs is no school in a working class area we’re

A - this would actually happen
B- it would go in noted if it did

My son is black and went to a majory Asian school

their would be no boy in a dress everi would put money on the family op talks about being white and middle class

User183737

I would have thought one small part of the solution would be to do away with separate male/female dress codes across all organisations so that nobody bats an eyelid at clothing choices typically associated with one sex

Attention seekers seek attention

Me too my son's also black and it just wouldn't happen. I think we discussed class and whiteness a bit ago. It's basically the ability to step in and out of acceptability from a position of privilege.
However OP said the boy had working class, single sex parents, I'm assuming lesbians.

@Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar

Any young child who thinks they can be a boy or a girl depending on how they feel when they wake up in the morning has been fed this nonsense by their right on parents.
Never before in human history was the notion that sex isn’t a constant given to children too young to understand what bollocks that is.

Sorry but this just made me laugh. I have never said anything to my child, my child has a brilliant imagination and can be a witch or a wizard what ever mood takes.
It’s not about changing gender it’s about imagination and pretend play.
Now I do get that this thread is not about imagination or pretend play at all, so maybe my post came across same way.
All I was saying is that I never ever mentioned anything of the sort to my child, so your comment directed at me is rubbish in this case.
However children who do believe they are the wrong gender must either feel it strongly or are being fed it by parents.
Children who just have strong imaginations and have the ability to pretend to be what ever they want to be is something entirely different.
I had a frog for 2 whole days few years ago, now you gonna tell me I encouraged and fed the frog idea?!
Some kids are just ...... imaginative?!