Friends sending their DS to school in a pinafore.

[RelentlessSylvia]

Friends (I'm pals with both halves of the couple) have a DS, 4.

He's starting primary after the summer and they've bought him pinafores rather than shorts or trousers. They've always bought him a range of clothes up to now - dresses, skirts, trousers, shorts, pink, blue and every other colour - and he's picked what he wants to wear every day. He has no concept that garments are gendered and just likes to wear what he likes to wear. I think this is great.

But they haven't bought a range of uniform items, they've bought him pinafores and tights. AIBU to think they are making a statement at the expense of their DS's choice? Shorts and trousers are, for better or worse, much less gendered items than dresses.

He is a lovely boy and a testament to their parenting. Both parents are proudly unorthodox and brilliant, brave people. But AIBU to think they're kinda using their son as a flag to wave to the rest of the school community, rather than giving him the option of being low-key?

Nursery have previously expressed concerns that my friends were forcing their DS to wear dresses. They weren't. He chooses his clothes from a range. It may be that they've said 'which style of uniform do you want?' and he's made a choice but sadly there is a huge context to gender and clothing that he isn't aware of, so it isn't a genuine choice?

AIB horrible and judgemental? I love that this kid can be who he wants to be. I just worry that he's going to become an object of ridicule and derision on his first day.

Fascicle, yes, schools have changed a lot in the last generation. Human nature hasn't kept pace, sadly, and bullying is still a problem. I strongly suspect that if OP had known Devilish's friend's mother at the time she would have described her as brave and brilliant too. Not all parents are great. Otherwise we'd have no cases of Munchhausen's by Proxy.

I repeat what I've said already on this thread. If the parents want to make a statement about widening the bandwidth of masculinity, great. If they are male, they should do it themselves. If not, campaign for it. But don't push their vulnerable 4yo into the unwitting role of poster boy for their campaign.

We’re talking about social conventions and the welfare of small children

I think this is it in a nutshell - what we are talking about is convention. It's as boring as that.

Conventions exist. In myriad ways. Loads about clothing. Why don't you wear white to a wedding? Why dont you wear jeans to a wedding? Why is that disrespectful? They're just clothes. But it's the convention. Why does a funeral mean a black outfit? Black clothes don't inherently signify respect for the dead; you can be just as upset about someone's death in a Hawaiian shirt. But you'd be unlikely to wear one to your MIL's funeral because you are aware of the existence of that convention. And if someone came from a different culture and was going to a wedding or a funeral, then you'd probably advise them of the social norms. Not to dictate what they wore, but to let them know that certain expectations exist. I was invited to an Indian wedding; on the bottom of the invitation it explained some of the customs and said that ladies might like to avoid red because that's traditionally the colour worn by the bride. If I choose to flout those customs and turn up in a red dress that would be my right, of course, but choosing to do so as a statement is a different thing from just digging out the red dress I wore to Cousin Sheila's wedding because I thought it looked nice.

That women and men wear different clothes is a convention that runs across most societies and has done for millennia. That younger people wear different clothes is another. If I want to make myself and go out in a babygro, I can do but would get some very funny looks. If I went out in frilly ankle socks like my 6 year old daughter, I would get some funny looks. It's just fabric, but it flouts a norm. Can I do so if I wish? Absolutely. Is it particularly admirable for me to do so? Not really. Why is a man wanting to wear a dress different from this? If he wants to, he can do - absolutely - but it is unconventional and flouts a norm.

It's as prosaic as that. It's not some groundbreaking, brave, save the world kind of thing. You're encouraging a small child to flout a set of conventions of which he has no idea. Don't see why that's admirable at all. It's certainly totally different from supporting an older child who feels stifled by that convention and feels the need to be free of it. The latter would be about the child. What these people are doing is all about them.

@fascicle I have teenagers - I know what schools (or more relevantly) kids are like.

Youngest actually goes to a progressive school, where the school itself would - I am sure - accommodate a need to wear a pinafore if child led

There is a massive difference between something a child needs to do themselves and a parent preventing a child from fitting in for their own reasons (my friend’s mother, these parents).

There is no way a 4 year old starting school understands the statement that wearing a pinafore will make. They have no way of knowing that they will get comments and questions about it. My 16 year old knows that if he wore ballet kit to his all boys school he would get edgy comments & the piss taken out of him. He therefore chooses not to do that. He has made an informed chase. This young kid has no idea what he is letting himself in for.

The parents are idiots. Why make him stand out from day 1? If he decides, after being there for long enough to understand the consequences, that he wants to wear a dress, then fine, support him. But to knowingly make that decision for him is cruel.

It's as prosaic as that. It's not some groundbreaking, brave, save the world kind of thing. You're encouraging a small child to flout a set of conventions of which he has no idea. Don't see why that's admirable at all. It's certainly totally different from supporting an older child who feels stifled by that convention and feels the need to be free of it. The latter would be about the child. What these people are doing is all about them.

Exactly.

My teen ds always continues to wear his ballet gear after a lesson and he’s never had any comments. He and his friends aren’t into labels at all though and he goes to a school with a strong male dance teacher. It’s about teaching children not to be nasty to others.

The first couple of weeks at school are a critical time for forming new friendships. If this poor little lad is perceived as “weird” by the other boys, he may be shunned or mocked, and by the time he realises the problem is his pinafore and demands more conforming uniform, it will be much harder to play catch up to try and get into already formed friendship groups.
As many PPs have said, the parents are putting their theories ahead of their vulnerable child’s happiness.

cool my ex did, and it didn't bother me. What bothers me about this is that up until now the boy's had trousers, shorts, skirts and dresses to choose from, now his parents have only bought him pinafores for school. DD wore shorts all summer at school, she's only requested trousers for September, but that's her choice. She's lucky. I was 15 when my school decided girls could wear grey corduroy trousers in winter.

Your child wears tights to school?

That’s great if he wants to do that. My son has chosen not to put himself in the role of educating others. And that’s his choice, so it’s fine. If he wanted to make a statement and take on the culture at his boys school I would support him in that. It’s not my place to impose that decision on him. He has capacity to decide, so up to him.

schools have changed a bit in the last 30 years

True but teenagers havnt. Teenage years are still generally bloody awful interspersed with the occasional wonderful. Why on Earth parents help their children to make this harder than it already will be baffles me.

I wonder if dad too wears a dress to work or it’s just their kid who has to be the trailblazer?

DS wears his ballet tights after his lessons which are out of school, so to the park, friends’ houses town etc. He’s not making a point he just can’t be arsed to get changed. He and his friends do all feel strongly about sexism and double standards and he’s recently said he’s gay so maybe he’s not your typical teenage boy who takes the piss out of others for what they’re wearing. He wouldn’t dream of that, not even those who insist on labels. He just gets on with his life and no one has ever felt the need to comment. He did also wear a dress on world book day as the boy in the dress.

The pertinent issue is whether the boy wants the dress or his parents; this isn’t clear from the op. As he’s already worn dresses by choice he’s probably already had comments and dealt with them in his own way.

Look at Grayson Perry, Eddie izzard etc, the boy in the dress, the idiots are the ones taking the piss and need to be enlightened.

But that's your ds's choice Crepe and he is comfortable doing this. You haven't made him wear ballet tights.

It seems this little boy hasn't made the decision to wear the pinafore p, more his parents inflicting it on him.

As I said that is the pertinent issue. I assumed he had as choice as he always has done whereas most people believe he hasn’t and the patents are forcing him. We won’t know until the op asks her friends and lets us know the answer!
But if a boy does want to wear a dress is it ok for parents to force him into trousers?

My son used to stay in his tights after lessons at 13 (when he first started ballet), although not if seeingrg school friends. No way at 16. He only wears tights for exams now. The rest of the time he’s in regular shorts.

He doesn’t give a shit about sexist crap or homosexuality (he’s worked in the west end - many, many, many of the people he looks up to are gay), he just doesn’t want the grief & hassle of standing out.

He has a severely disabled brother - so grew up standing out and dealing with comments (mix of kind. interested, ignorant and deliberately vile from all ages), so he’s certainly making an informed choice.

I’m certainly not saying that kids with the capacity to understand their decision shouldn’t wear what they like. But until they possess that capacity I don’t think we should be imposing extremes on them which will make them stand out.

Crepe - a 4 year old has no idea what reaction he may get from wearing a pinafore to school. He could wear it and find out. That decision may or may not follow him for years. Or he could make the decision himself once he has discovered how social structures at school work.

I think ss should get involved- that’s abusive, in my opinion.

My adult severely disabled son doesn’t have the capacity to understand the social expectations around clothing and if given clothes to wear will put them on without question. Should we give him a dress?

Fascicle
A pinafore and pink t shirt is not comparable to, say, putting a child in a nigerian traditional dress.
The former is attention grabbing to make a statement, the latter adopting longstanding cultural dress.
Please dont speak as though i am thick, it is obvious some cultures have historically worn dresses. That isnt this, at all and you know it isnt.
So no ethnic minority kids, generally, would not wear a pinafore, whereas a muslim boy would wear a white flowing legless garment. One is ascribing to cultural expectations, the other is deliberately challenging them. The former would mean father and son both wear those clothes. I guarantee 100% the pinafor kids dad wouldnt wear one for work.

@Ansumpasty ARE YOU KIDDING ME LMAOOOOO.

How can you even say they're 'abusive' you don't know them the op has said they're wonderful parents.

You'd actually call social services about a child wearing different clothes to the social norm? What a waste of resources.

none here knows the parents including myself so you nor myself know if he wears them because he wants to but IF he does want to wear them so bloody what most kids grow out of it and even if they don't so what? It brings nothing to your life nor takes it always

If I insisted on dressing my adult son who doesn’t have capacity in a pinafore I may well find myself answering to SS tbh.

It's not being edgy, groundbreaking, and a leader for change if what you are doing is pushing your child in front of you.

^ particularly if the child will stand out due to other reasons and there is a suspicion that he is on the ASD spectrum.

Eddie Izzard

Please please don’t hold that mysogynistic bastard up for your sons to admire please. Maybe research him shouting at teenage girls who, quite rightly, objected to him using female toilets.

He’s vile. Please educate your sons to remember they may wear dresses and they are perfectly entitled to do so but don’t support them trampling on the rights of women and girls.

All this freedom and expressing their individuality is great as long as they don’t trample on others rights.

superhansg

Because the parents are using their child as a prop to make a statement. They’re making a joke of him, like he’s some kind of walking parody.

How to f*ck up your son number 37: Put him in a dress and send him to school to make his peers laugh

Very sad situation I think

@Ansumpasty how do you know this? How do you know they're forcing him? Prove it