Friends sending their DS to school in a pinafore.

[RelentlessSylvia]

Friends (I'm pals with both halves of the couple) have a DS, 4.

He's starting primary after the summer and they've bought him pinafores rather than shorts or trousers. They've always bought him a range of clothes up to now - dresses, skirts, trousers, shorts, pink, blue and every other colour - and he's picked what he wants to wear every day. He has no concept that garments are gendered and just likes to wear what he likes to wear. I think this is great.

But they haven't bought a range of uniform items, they've bought him pinafores and tights. AIBU to think they are making a statement at the expense of their DS's choice? Shorts and trousers are, for better or worse, much less gendered items than dresses.

He is a lovely boy and a testament to their parenting. Both parents are proudly unorthodox and brilliant, brave people. But AIBU to think they're kinda using their son as a flag to wave to the rest of the school community, rather than giving him the option of being low-key?

Nursery have previously expressed concerns that my friends were forcing their DS to wear dresses. They weren't. He chooses his clothes from a range. It may be that they've said 'which style of uniform do you want?' and he's made a choice but sadly there is a huge context to gender and clothing that he isn't aware of, so it isn't a genuine choice?

AIB horrible and judgemental? I love that this kid can be who he wants to be. I just worry that he's going to become an object of ridicule and derision on his first day.

Oh well no dought the parents will manage to
Somehow hey their faces in the media to A show how edgy they are and then B sad face as they complain little Alfred is being bullied.

Poor bloody teachers and poor little lad.

Agreed that pinafores are not really easy for a boy to piss in... however I'm struggling to understand how it's impractical for a girl?? Surely it's the same as a skirt? Lift and sit??

My DD picked out the new play suit style uniform for summer this year, now I imagine that is a right ball ache to go to the loo in!

Op hasn’t really had a lot to say considering she must have known how many replies this thread would get.
I really want to know more about what makes this unorthodox pair so brave and brilliant. I’m picturing them both being trans something or other and being bohemian and hipster with a bit of grime thrown in (or whatever’s cool these days). No problem, but just let the boy grow up without all the efforts of making sure he is as gender neutral as possible. It must be quite tiring.

I have known one boy who liked to wear girls clothes all through infants and juniors. He was a bit odd if I’m honest and I’m not sure he had many friends. I did wonder how he would fare at secondary school. Not very well at all if he had gone to one of the local all boys schools.

I said on the other thread that all this gender neutrality is a white privilege, whereby they can dip in and out of acceptability. How many minority ethnic groups piss about putting boys in dresses?

Poor boy. School life's hard enough fitting in and finding your place as it is.

User

That’s a very interesting perspective and I agree with you.

It's great to provide children with a choice, but this isn't a choice!

DS did sadly learn "pink is for girls" at school but as I've pointed out to him, he still wears his pink leggings.

DD has a few summer dresses for school but I predict when she starts she'll want the shorts and the trousers when it gets colder. I've bought no tights for just this reason.

How many minority ethnic groups piss about putting boys in dresses?
Yep, a point made by many adult adoptees on some groups I'm on (white adoptive mum to ethnic minority child).
Applies to other mad clothing choices too. I prefer my child not to stick out for too many reasons, she's already a minority.

It’s not only white privilege. It’s white MC privilege.

You won’t be seeing boys in pinafores in Felixstowe, Batley or Whitley Bay.

How sad that children are pigeon holed by what they wear. And that's what these parents are doing.

I said on the other thread that all this gender neutrality is a white privilege, whereby they can dip in and out of acceptability
It's more white middle class privilege.

If you socialise with people who'll talk about gender and enjoy supporting each other's 'woke-ness' then you'll probably feel right at home making your statement safe in the knowledge that other people will not want to seem odd expressing anything other than admiration for your quirks.

Look at the parents who make it into the news with their middle class hippy version of gender neutral parenting. Always about them and a statement of their coolness:
www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/paloma-faith-raising-child-gender-neutral-leyman-lahcine-refuses-to-reveal-sex-or-name-a8013776.html
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9028479/Couple-raise-child-as-gender-neutral-to-avoid-stereotyping.html

Yep plimmy 100%. Because they are so comfortably acceptable, they can play a game to test boundaries. Which is exactly what op's friends if they existare doing. Playing out a social story through their child.
My non white non MC kids' dad would refuse to go out with our kids if they wore a dress. He would see it as humiliating for all of us, in our culture.

And whoever mentioned radio 4 and this morning was bob on.

Agreed maisy. I made the MC point on the other thread

I think it's a terrible idea. I'm all for being as gender neutral as possible but this is sacrificing their son to their half baked kookiness.

My son has had phases of wanting to wear dresses which has been fine by me, but he certainly won't be wearing one when he starts school in September. He's actually gone off them anyway now but even of he hadnt....

User183737
How many minority ethnic groups piss about putting boys in dresses?

It sounds like you are oblivious to the concept of boys wearing dresses. There are cultures/religions where males wearing dresses/robes is nothing unusual. It is a relatively recent Western phenomenon for young boys wearing dresses to be considered unusual. I don't suppose you are aware that in the early part of the last century in the UK it was common for young boys to wear dresses?

That’s really not an argument, though, is it fascicle?

There are - obviously - many societies in the world. Why choose some and not others? If you want to say that boys wear skirts in one country, why not acknowledge that boys don’t in others? Or acknowledge that girls can’t attend schools at all in other countries?

I don’t support any discrimination. No one does (I hope). But you can hardly deny that children deserve safety and well-being in all respects. And that playing out parents’ wish fulfilments at the expense of their children is cruel.

Plimmy Yes, it is an argument and a response to a specific point from another poster. Not sure where you are trying to get to with choice of societies - as previously indicated within the last 100 years it was common for young boys to wear dresses in this society. What is the point you are trying to make - that it is cruel not to encourage your children to conform to current gender stereotypes?

Those that think it's fine, ask yourselves this, would you like your husband/boyfriend to start wearing dresses, for nights out, going shopping etc, or do you prefer him in a nice shirt and trousers or jeans. No contest for me.

fascicle

I don’t understand your appeal to history (or different societies). If something was common 100 years ago (or is now elsewhere) that doesn’t justify it or make it right to bring back.

We’re talking about social conventions and the welfare of small children. Little boys in dresses or sailor suits in 1888 is neither here nor there.

The argument in favour of humiliating a small child in support of a middle class, small ‘p’ political point of view is so contrived it’s painful.

Plimmy The point is, there is no logic to what is actually a relatively recent stigma/not an issue elsewhere. I am surprised that so many people advocate buying into arbitrary male/female stereotypes that are harmful to society.

The argument in favour of humiliating a small child

It is wrong to suggest anyone supports an argument in favour of this. You are anticipating an outcome that has not yet occurred. As a side note, the parents are being judged on very scant information provided by the OP. For all we know, in keeping with what they did previously (offer a choice of clothing), the parents might buy more items of school uniform ahead of the school year, which would render condemnation of their hypothetical motives unmerited.

I accept the (general) good intention. I’m sure everyone does.

But what you’re arguing isn’t about achieving a better society. It’s about propping up self-regarding gestures at the cost of a small boy’s welfare.

For the poster upthread who asked where people live where this is not unusual. I live in Walthamstow, an East London Borough. It's a large very ethnically diverse school which my kids attend. Genuinely it isn't an issue here what a child chooses to wear.

Anyone who thinks you can send a child to a school in a pinafore without that having any sort of negative impact on the child at all has not had much experience of school aged children.

Now there may be a child somewhere who has such an inner need to wear a pinafore that they will put up with the comments because even if there are no purposely unpleasant comments (which unfortunately is unlikely) there will be curious comments. Curious comments can be pretty exhausting (I have a severely disabled son who used a speech device to communicate - he used to be the like the pied piper and have a trail of small children following him asking me questions).

In the case of a child desperately needing to wear a pinafore or course parents supporting their child is a good idea.

But this isn’t the case here. The child who is about to wear the pinafore to school is ignorant of the impact it will have on others and of the fact it will at best, lead to a million questions and at worse make him a target. My youngest was very anxious starting school & at school - he barely spoke until he reached year 5. Singling him out in this way would have finished him off.

The parents need to remember that they have a child in the middle of this who needs nurturing to adulthood, not turning into a flag waving political statement.

I have limited tolerance for people using their children to further their own agenda. There is a difference between supporting your child in something they initiate and setting your child up for ridicule.

I have recently met up with a friend from school after not seeing her for about 30 odd years. We were at school in the 80’s. She had a very difficult time at school because her Mum made her dress differently (I won’t give the details because it would be outing and it’s not my story). It wasn’t in such a major way as this, but one other child made her life hell because of it and rounded up others. Thirty five years later her anger (& she has a lot) is still directed towards her mother. Not the bullying child(ren). She said she used to beg her mother to wear the same as everyone else and her mother would not let her. Her mother was a nightmare in many ways (unsurprisingly really given her refusal to hear what her daughter was saying about the impact the clothes were having on her), so her anger isn’t just about that, but she blames the hard time she had at school pretty much entirely on her mother’s insistence that she dress the way she insisted - and tbh she’s probably right.

I don’t understand any parent who knowingly exposes their innocent child to a situation in which they may be ridiculed. This is one of those situations.

Plimmy
But what you’re arguing isn’t about achieving a better society. It’s about propping up self-regarding gestures at the cost of a small boy’s welfare.

Extraordinary and completely incorrect assumption. Nothing to suggest the boy's welfare will be compromised (catastrophic thinking on the part of many posters) or that the parents won't react/accommodate him if/when he changes his mind.

Devilish Schools have changed a lot in the last 35 years (when e.g. corporal punishment was not yet illegal and there were no widespread anti-bullying or safeguarding policies). Your friend was forced to wear something she didn't want to and you say her mother was a nightmare in many ways. OP has suggested her friends are good, loving parents so not sure how relevant your friend's situation is.