To have raised a gentleman?

[Storm4star]

Off the back of another thread, where people are saying men shouldn’t have to give up their seat for a pregnant lady,

I raised a gentleman. He’s in his 20s and gives up his seat on a train for an elderly person or pregnant woman. We had a lovely moment in Japan where he gave up his seat for an elderly lady (men are notoriously bad there for thinking they take precedence over women) and we saw her rummaging in her bag and, as she got off, she gave him a beautiful handmade gift she had there, to say thank you. It was such a sweet moment. Is this so wrong?

Why does feminism mean that men can’t show manners and decency to other human beings because they are female? Is it really so insulting? My son cooks and cleans and is fully aware that any woman in his life should be treated as an equal. However, he is also kind and caring and was raised to treat women respectfully and with kindness. To help them if they need help.

For the most part, women are not as physically strong as men. Men do not need to go through pregnancy, childbirth, period issues, menopause (which I am certainly currently struggling with) etc etc. Why are we pretending that our bodies are the same? Is equal pay and treatment dependant on proving you are physically as “tough” as a man?

I’m actually not sorry that I have raised him to be the man he is, because I am proud of him. I think feminism is a bit skewed to think that we have to be “just like men” to earn equality.

But OP none of the things you mention in which choice is taken away from women are goals of feminism. So you don't have a problem with feminism, you have a problem with your misconceptions about what it is and what the straw feminists you disagree with supposedly want. This sense of being a beleaguered minority view is entirely in your own head.

You're wildly misunderstanding feminism.

The goal of feminism isn't to take choice away, it's to give it. Feminists aren't advocating for forcing couples to share parental leave - we're advocating for couples being supporting in sharing parental leave if that's what is right for them.

Feminists also wouldn't criticise SAHMs if that is a choice a woman has freely made because it's what she wants and is best for her family.

But there are huge difficulties facing women who want to return to work and not be primary carers for their children - there was a thread recently where many posters were suggesting that mothers are automatically a more important parent than fathers, and that is damaging and unhelpful to women who do want to be the ones who work. And many women are SAHMs because their husbands refuse to share childcare responsibilities. They can then end up financially dependent on their partners and lose control over making their own decisions.

Feminism has always been about choice, but we are a long way away from a world where women are able to make those choices freely.

Then I think that some people who identify themselves as feminists need to have a rethink! Because these are the people with the loudest voices. These are the sorts of messages that your average person, who hasn't looked into it, are seeing. Not everyone is going to educate themselves on what feminism really is so all they hear are the loudest voices.

I am going to look at the feminist board, not because of the ones who shouted "misogynist" at me! Those I just ignore. But I have read every post and a couple of people have just calmly and without rudeness, suggested I go and do some reading there. Those people I am listening to.

You are right in that I shouldn't base assumptions on a few people. But as humans we tend to do that when that is the information we have at the time.

Feminism bleurgh more like feminazi's these so called banshee's are causing so much chaos it is ridiculous. As I have said before men are damned if they do and damned if they don't!

This is it exactly. I want choice for women. The choice to work or be a SAHM, without penalty (or criticism) for either choice. If that is feminism then yes I am on board! This particular issue is one I feel very strongly about.

I think it is hard to discern on face value what is and isn't feminism. I don't think my perception was helped by some of the prior responses I have received on this thread, although I also concede the way I worded the initial post contributed to that.

I am totally with you OP!

Thanks RainSim, it's been tough going!

My son cooks, cleans and would give his seat to anyone who needed it without a thought. He’s polite, considerate and kind.

He’s also a feminist.

@Storm, feminism is a broad movement and there are lots of different ideological positions within it. That causes discussion. It's quite possible for two people who call themselves feminists to hold different viewpoints on something. The point is for these viewpoints to result in robust discussion and, eventually, hopefully, results that improves outcomes for women. It doesn't mean there is always one particular view that "belongs" to feminism.

Perhaps the perspective you're looking for is not "I disagree with feminism because feminism thinks one thing and I think another", but "I think this approach is not a very feminist approach because..."

So to relate this to your scenario, I would say it IS a feminist choice to raise your son to be willing to give up his seat for someone who needs it, exactly the same as you would expect your daughter to do it. But it's not a feminist position to be pleased that someone was so delighted/surprised by him doing so that she rewarded him (unless you assume she would have done the same if it was your daughter who gave up her seat).

I also think it IS feminist to think that people should offer their seat to a pregnant woman, as it's a condition that women exclusively suffer from and are disadvantaged by, but it's NOT a feminist position to assume that any given woman, pregnant or not, should be given a seat because she's "weaker" than any given man.

The same with the shopping. If a woman is clearly struggling to carry a lot of shopping because she's a small person (which women tend to be moreso than men) then yes, it would be a feminist act to help her carry it (though it doesn't need to be a man who offers to help - it could just as easily be a woman). However, it's not a feminist act to assume that any woman carrying shopping needs or will appreciate help simply because she's a woman.

I've never struggled to carry shopping in my life, and don't think anyone has ever offered to help me carry it. But if they did, how I reacted to an offer of help would be entirely situation dependent. Someone saying, "Wow, that's a lot of bags, do you need a hand?" would probably result in "Oh, thanks, but I'm fine." A man saying, "A lady like you shouldn't be carrying all those bags, give some to me" would result in a Paddington Hard Stare and "I'm fine", and me internally thinking "Chuff off, you patronising dick."

Does that help?

In my experience, women are more likely to realise quite quickly when they should give up their seat because they can read body language better and on the whole have more empathy than Men. Men on the other hand need to be taught because they are not as good at reading body language or putting themselves in others shoes. Furthermore they haven't experienced pregnancy or period pain, so don't know how utterly painful and exhausting it can be.

A far better test of a how well parents have raised their son would be whether or not he's ever engaged in locker room talk when there are no women there to hear it. Does he plamas women just to get the lad in then disappear. If when he's older and he has two candidates, one male and one female, both recently married, will he consider the man the obvous choice , I can imagine men who do all of this standing up to offer a woman a seat on the bus because that shit costs them nothing and makes them look good.
Giving up any of their real privilege????

I once thought like you OP. But once you begin to see how sexist society still is, it's impossible to unsee it.

It's easy to assume that because women have the theoretical right to do what men do, they have free choice. But they don't. Because their ability to choose is still massively influenced by the attitudes that have surrounded them since they were toddlers. Until it is equally socially acceptable and expected for men to take paternity leave/be sahp/work part-time etc, women's ability to choose is still massively hampered.

@Shamelessly

Yes that does help a lot. Thank you.

In the particular incident with the old lady, that was maybe a skewed example to use because men there do not give up their seats for anyone and I see groups of office workers get on and the men automatically sit while the women stand. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying the men should stand because they are men. But there, the assumption is that women should stand because they are not as important as the men! And that I do disagree with. Japan is a bit messed up in that way. She may well have also given the gift to my daughter had she done so because no one else was going to stand up for her.

Sadly I have struggled with shopping! But maybe because I bought too much I have helped women with buggies, or old lady's with their trolleys or bags. I certainly don't think kind acts should only or automatically be done by men. I just don't want them to end up being done exclusively by women.

the last time I opened a door for a woman with a pram I was shouted at
The time before that just ignored until I let go of teh door and she went through.
The last time I helped a woman who was being attacked she stabbed me
The time before that she and her BF started hitting me.
The times that I have offered a pregnant woman a seat on a bus or train I was firmly told that it 'Wasn't and illness' and they could @cope just fine'
These have all been randoms that I don't know, but it should help understand why some men aren't chivalrous or gentlemanly.

@Kingkiller

Do you not think that's changing though? If I look back to when I grew up, a stay at home dad was unheard of. People would have been horrified! But I feel it is becoming more common. I know a couple who had a baby recently and she wants her full maternity leave but after that she will return to work. She earns far more than her husband, and I know they are thinking seriously of him being an SAHD for a while. And nobody will think that odd in the slightest. Nor should they, just comparing to how it was years ago.

But OP none of the things you mention in which choice is taken away from women are goals of feminism. So you don't have a problem with feminism, you have a problem with your misconceptions about what it is and what the straw feminists you disagree with supposedly want. This sense of being a beleaguered minority view is entirely in your own head.

^^This.

As pp have said, I think you are just completely misunderstanding feminism and your misconceptions are leading you to think you disagree when you probably don’t!

I’m not sure any feminist would want to see a forced shared maternity leave, just the option to have this choice easily available.

oh do be brief....

Both of my children (boy and girl) give up their seats for older people, it's called raising a normal human. Fuck all to do with slagging off feminism.

My son is a real gent. This morning he found a school bag that had been rifled and discarded in a London playground, gathered up the books, put them in the bag, and cycled to the school named on the books to return it.

however I can more or less guarantee that if you saw him you would think eww what a rough looking boy...

OP, why do think things are changing, so men and women now have more options around who stays at home? Do you think, perhaps, it may have something to do with all the feminists who campaigned for family friendly reforms in the work place? It is annoying and ignorant when women benefit from feminism but then kick it down.

It is annoying and ignorant when women benefit from feminism but then kick it down

I get that. But then calling them annoying and/or ignorant, or making statements that make it clear you feel that way, changes nothing.

I am interested in the posts that have set out clear, logical arguments and it's given me some things to think about. Those whose sole purpose have been to tell me I'm ignorant (along with many other choice insults) have been ignored. I won't be "told" how to think, but I am open minded enough to read a post, that doesn't set out from a position of attack, and think "ok I had't thought of that, let me think about this some more and look into it".

I hope that my dd would give up her seat to an elderly or disabled person, or to a pregnant woman if needed. It's just basic manners for able bodied individuals of either gender.

Then you are very lucky Semster.

And hence there is absolutely no need for your son to give up his seat for me.

I am not weaker than him just because I'm a 49 year old woman.

Well, if you are going to make annoying and ignorant posts, you will get called on it. You seem to think feminism should go out of its way to please you, all wrapped up in a fluffy bow. Feminists are going to go on improving women's lives, regardless of your reservations, OP, so I have no interest in attempting to appeal to you or tell you how to think. You are free to be as ignorant as you please in an equal society.