To have raised a gentleman?

[Storm4star]

Off the back of another thread, where people are saying men shouldn’t have to give up their seat for a pregnant lady,

I raised a gentleman. He’s in his 20s and gives up his seat on a train for an elderly person or pregnant woman. We had a lovely moment in Japan where he gave up his seat for an elderly lady (men are notoriously bad there for thinking they take precedence over women) and we saw her rummaging in her bag and, as she got off, she gave him a beautiful handmade gift she had there, to say thank you. It was such a sweet moment. Is this so wrong?

Why does feminism mean that men can’t show manners and decency to other human beings because they are female? Is it really so insulting? My son cooks and cleans and is fully aware that any woman in his life should be treated as an equal. However, he is also kind and caring and was raised to treat women respectfully and with kindness. To help them if they need help.

For the most part, women are not as physically strong as men. Men do not need to go through pregnancy, childbirth, period issues, menopause (which I am certainly currently struggling with) etc etc. Why are we pretending that our bodies are the same? Is equal pay and treatment dependant on proving you are physically as “tough” as a man?

I’m actually not sorry that I have raised him to be the man he is, because I am proud of him. I think feminism is a bit skewed to think that we have to be “just like men” to earn equality.

So, I am saying, some of us do still raise sons to be chivalrous but Is that considered wrong in today’s society, and if so, why?

It's not wrong but it's just called being polite. A man or a woman should give up their seat for someone who needs it more.

@TheGreatCornholio

If you want specifics, it was apparently a hand sewn pouch she had made for her mobile phone and she wanted to give my son a gift so she decided on that. I just didn’t think that people reading this thread would want that amount of detail.

Ugh for goodness sake. I described my son as a gentleman. He would never say that about himself because he is very humble, I wrote this thread, not him. In fact he would be utterly cringing if he saw this!

Has OP been disheartened to read on the other thread that men are pointedly not giving up seats nowadays?
Perhaps prompted by some women being needlessly rude to them?

Maybe this was what prompted the OP.

The traditional way of men giving up their seat just in case there was a pregnancy not showing yet/time of the month pain - has it now gone?

Women wanted equal pay, that is what set the Dagenham workforce into action.

Why wouldn't he be? What has he got to be not-humble about?

Where I live common courtesy is not exclusive to the male sex.
We hold doors for one another and give up seats to those who need them regardless of sex.

Blaming feminism for men being rude falls under the first rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do, or in this case do not do.

It sounds like your son is a really nice man. I’m not sure we agree that makes him a gentleman. Nothing good that you’ve described him doing should be the preserve of the male sex, women should be just as considerate and kind. My daughter gives up her seat to anyone she spots who needs it more, as do I. We are both fit and well.

The corollary to gentlemen giving up their seat to ladies in the past, was that ladies’ frailty rendered them unfit for for the rigour of professional or public life. Obviously this didn’t apply to women (not ladies!) of the lower orders, their sexual organs didn’t preclude them working 16 hour shifts in mills or the houses of their betters. Gentlemen didn’t offer them seats, or relieve them of the coal scuttles they carried around their houses I think.
I prefer it nowadays myself.

If your son was disabled would you expect a woman to give up her seat for him?

How would that square with your notions of him being a gentleman?

What would that women be? A gentlewoman?

Would your son now be classed as 'weak'? Like a woman?

Nobody said men shouldn't give up their seats for pregnant women. They said that both men and women should give up their seat for a person less able to stand than them. THAT is manners and decency. I would be horrified if I raised a daughter who was such an entitled little princess that she didn't think she had to give her seat to a pregnant woman because it was the job of a man to do so.

People should give up their seats for anyone who needs it more than them. Chivalry is a load of condescending old bollocks - people should be polite and decent to others regardless of their sex. Op if you really think men being rude to women must be the fault of other women then you should probably do something to tackle your internalised misogyny

I'm not sure why you think he's a gentleman. Would you mind defining your terms?

And I have no idea what any of this has to do with feminism, but hey.

I also think that this fawning attitude that men should be called gentlemen and feted for their wonderful manners and consideration of others in return for the incredibly basic human decency if giving up a seat to someone who needs it more is absurd. Your son isn't a miraculous chivalric gentleman because he doesn't sit comfortably while pregnant women stand. That's literally the bare minimum any human should be willing to do.

YANBU OP
Be proud no matter what anyone else says!

"Chivalry is a load of condescending old bollocks - people should be polite and decent to others regardless of their sex."

This for god's sake! Your son sounds like a nice man but standing up for an elderly person is a pretty low bar - any half decent person should be doing that. I also agree that women should not be held responsible for men's actions - if men are angry because women don't want doors opening for them that's their fucking problem!

i dont think feminism has anything to do with this you describe a number of normal behaviours as gentlemanly id hope most people do these things not that they are so rare they need a whole thread about them

There is a vast difference between physical strength and being ‘tough’ that I think often gets lost in discussions and on threads like these.

Men’s bodies may be built in a way that means their physical attributes are ‘stronger’ than the physiology of a woman’s body. This does not mean they are ‘tougher’ or in any way superior.

As you yourself point out, women's Bodies are built to create children, carry them and deliver them and bear the pain of childbirth. I’d say this was motherfucking ‘tough’ as anything!

Similarly I get so cross when people say courage is about ‘growing a pair’ - ffs. Bollocks and testosterone do not make someone automatically brave or courageous. I wish we could get away from these androcentric views and ways of reinforcing them with our speech.

I never say ‘grow a pair’ or that someone ‘has balls’. I say ‘has nerve’ or is courageous. It’s not difficult.

However, the fact that a small and simple act of basic decency prompted a woman to give him a thank you gift and you to start a gushing thread about what a gentleman he is, is why we need feminism.

This, exactly.

OP, your son and daughter both sound pleasant, respectful and thoughtful. But that doesn't make your son "chivalrous" and your daughter "a normal, decent member of society". It makes them both normal, decent members of society.

YABU - you’ve raised a child to have good manners, be thoughtful and show empathy and that applies to girls as well as boys. Not sure what ‘feminism’ has to do with raising a decent human being.
I give up my seat, have helped older people carry luggage on the underground, helped with buggiesnon steps, held doors open but no I’m not a ‘gentleman’ because I’m a woman. Your son isn’t ‘special’ for doing these things.
I expect equal pay because I don’t think men are 20% or more better than me because they are physically ‘stronger’ or have a penis. Or because they are ‘gentleman’. I’ll happily walk through a door held opened for me and say thanks whether it’s a man or woman holding it - and women quite often do despite their lack of physical strength, it’s amazing the thing women can do these days!

But as I said, on the other thread the op said several men just sat there while the pregnant lady stood. Were none of them raised to be decent human beings? Until recently I was travelling on the tube every day, I saw many women with “baby on board” badges. And yes, it was mostly women who would offer them a seat. Now you can say there’s nothing wrong with that but surely if both men and women were being raised to be decent human beings the ratio should have been about 50/50. It’s not.

I do think that men have taken the attitude now that they don’t have to do anything “nice” if they think oh there’s a woman, she can be the nice one. Maybe gentleman was the wrong word but I don’t know how else to say it. I do think that by saying we are capable of everything that men are, that we have shot ourselves in the foot a bit. Yes we should earn the same for doing the same job, that should be common sense. But if I am struggling with a heavy suitcase on the train (as has happened to Me) and a man who is clearly stronger than me offers to help then yes I am grateful. But more and more, men don’t offer to help. And this is what I was saying, I have raised my son to be a helpful man (maybe that was a better word than gentleman).

vy suitcase on the train (as has happened to Me) and a man who is clearly stronger than me offers to help then yes I am grateful

But presumably you would also be grateful if a woman offered to help? I know I have helped people wkth their suitcases before because I'm strong and able bodied and I can.

It's just very odd that all these displays of manners you're talking about are things you think men should be doing for women rather than things capable people should be doing for those who are struggling. Why are you insisting that it's a gendered issue?

It does sound like you've raised your son to be a helpful man. I was raised to be a helpful woman. I'm physically stronger than my husband - is he more obliged than me to offer help to others because he is male?

You've done a good thing by raising your son to be a helpful, thoughtful person. Anyone who raised their offspring, male or female, to be the same way is doing a good thing. But we don't need this old-fashioned view that being helpful and thoughtful is something men do for women because women are weak. Any able bodied woman is as capable of standing up on a train as an equivalent man. She doesn't need protected for her feminine weakness. It's artificial and unhelpful to suggest that she does.

YANBU. Your DS sounds delightful.

I have also noticed that there are far fewer men offering their seat to pregnant women, and strongly suspect that -rather than 'not being raised right' - they actually just hate women, and these days feel they can be more open with it because they have the protection of moaning that "well you lot wanted equality so you can stand like man have to!".

Some people use the 'equality' card as a reason to get out of doing things they can't be arsed doing (help carry heavy boxes etc). There's definitely a new wave of men hating women - look at MRAs, incels- and they're a little bit dim so believe they can place the blame on pesky feminists, likely believing our biggest oppressions are to do with buses and boxes

OP, this is such a disingenuous goady post.

Yes, you raised your son wrong. You taught him that women are weak and need protecting. He will probably grow up to be like the CEO husband of the the OP who has refused to allow women on his board because they might get pregnant and when challenged on this blatant misogyny asked his wife if it was her time of the month.

You have no idea what fuckery these “gentlemen” perpetrate despite being here in AIBU. What about the man who cares for and protects his wife who’s a SAHP, boasts about their D/s bedroom antics at work and buys her sexy underwear to shut her up. Sure he’s considered a gentleman too.

Also you don’t know what feminism is or means so you haven’t raised your son to treat women as equals. You know it, I know it. Stop showboating.

She doesn't need protected for her feminine weakness. It's artificial and unhelpful to suggest that she does

I don’t agree. As I said, i’m going through the menopause. I am one of those that is really suffering with it. I may “appear” as physically able to stand as my male counterpart but actually I get dizzy spells and sitting down helps. But hey, I should just tough it out so as not to show any “feminine weakness”.