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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have raised a gentleman?

197 replies

Storm4star · 18/07/2018 22:00

Off the back of another thread, where people are saying men shouldn’t have to give up their seat for a pregnant lady,

I raised a gentleman. He’s in his 20s and gives up his seat on a train for an elderly person or pregnant woman. We had a lovely moment in Japan where he gave up his seat for an elderly lady (men are notoriously bad there for thinking they take precedence over women) and we saw her rummaging in her bag and, as she got off, she gave him a beautiful handmade gift she had there, to say thank you. It was such a sweet moment. Is this so wrong?

Why does feminism mean that men can’t show manners and decency to other human beings because they are female? Is it really so insulting? My son cooks and cleans and is fully aware that any woman in his life should be treated as an equal. However, he is also kind and caring and was raised to treat women respectfully and with kindness. To help them if they need help.

For the most part, women are not as physically strong as men. Men do not need to go through pregnancy, childbirth, period issues, menopause (which I am certainly currently struggling with) etc etc. Why are we pretending that our bodies are the same? Is equal pay and treatment dependant on proving you are physically as “tough” as a man?

I’m actually not sorry that I have raised him to be the man he is, because I am proud of him. I think feminism is a bit skewed to think that we have to be “just like men” to earn equality.

OP posts:
MyWaterButtIsEmpty · 19/07/2018 14:46

MIL and FIL are the same age, save a few weeks.

FIL looks hale and hearty but actually has a medical condition which causes frequent falls. MIL has the constitution of a Shire horse. Males may be stronger In general but on an individual basis you don't and cannot know, and should not make sex-based judgements.

JacquesHammer · 19/07/2018 14:46

But I don't think women should have to lie about or hide these things

Me neither. So just ask for a seat if you need it.

Original poster
Storm4star · 19/07/2018 14:48

@MyWaterButtIsEmpty

So am I wrong? Are more women physically stronger than men?

I took the comment directed to me to mean "weaker" as in the whole package. Not weaker just physically, so it's not a contradiction. I believe men are stronger "outside" in that they can lift heavier weights etc (in general, not everyone!), but women have a greater "core" strength to deal with childbirth etc etc. Just saying women are weaker in one aspect, doesn't mean I think they are weaker as a whole.

OP posts:
Trinity66 · 19/07/2018 14:48

where people are saying men shouldn’t have to give up their seat for a pregnant lady,

I don't think people said that. I think the point was it shouldn't only be men offering their seats to pregnant women

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 14:51

If anyone needs a seat then they snojkd ask for it.

If you see someone struggling you should offer it

Whether someone is male or female shouldn’t make any difference though.

Original poster
Storm4star · 19/07/2018 14:54

Yes but at the risk of going round in circles, lately, in my experience, men are very rarely offering. That's the whole point. And that thread where 10 men sat and ignored a pregnant women echoed what I have observed. And that is where I feel something has gone wrong. It shouldn't be the experience that the majority of people we see doing something kind and helpful are women. It should be about even.

OP posts:
Ennirem · 19/07/2018 14:54

I just don't think it needs to be so heavily gendered. What's wrong with just teaching everyone to be polite, gracious, kind, even a little chivalrous, to everyone else? I hold doors open for women, men, anyone. I enjoy helping women with prams down stairs, it makes me feel good to help. I give up my seat for the old and the pregnant. I'm a woman. Why isn't there a special name for 'polite woman', why is it 'a thing' if you're a man? If you had written "AIBU to have raised my son to be polite and considerate' everyone would say YANBU. But by using the heavily gendered term 'gentleman', and by suggesting his magnanimity will be required and stimulated more by women than by men (because we have so many more problems of a feminine nature, bless us) it's just unnecessarily goady.

tl;dr: wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice (to everyone)?

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 14:55

Also I think the “men should always stand for women” type attitude will in a lot of cases ask for men who need it not asking for the seat leading to them suffering and I am sure nobody would want that would they?

SanseL · 19/07/2018 14:55

Well this in it's self is an oxymoron, why are you asking if it's unreasonable to have raised a "gentleman", why would it be?

These AIBU post's are starting to get really ridiculous, either the OP deep down know's the answer and just pointlessly asks to hear what they want to hear or is just looking to gloat, in this case the OP is the latter.

Great, your kid is considerate of others.

Now what do you want, a medal or a chest to pin it on OP?

Sirzy · 19/07/2018 14:56

But you had stood for the woman so why did anyone else need to? You are creating an issue where one doesn’t need to exist

Ennirem · 19/07/2018 14:56

Also I have no problem with women looking out for other women in the 'giving up seats for the pregnant' stakes. Sisterhood! We can take care of each other, we don't NEED men to take care of us. Surely feminism is about mutual supportiveness between women as much as anything else?

UndertheCedartree · 19/07/2018 14:56

Feminism is nothing to do with not being kind to people. I am bringing my children up to be kind to all not just women. We would give up a seat to anyone who needed it regardless of if they are male or female!

speakingwoman · 19/07/2018 14:58

ah, so men do something wrong, but somehow it's all women's fault.

Seems familiar somehow....

you're a misogynist OP.

RhiWrites · 19/07/2018 14:59

I never said women were the weaker sex, just that our bodies are not the same as men.

You said men were stronger. You have an example of men carrying in shopping and bags while women made them meals.

No, men are not automatically stronger. At my gym last month they held a wall squat competition among the instructors. In the end it was down to two male instructors and one female all squatting with the same weights. The woman won.

Your insistence on biological determinism is exactly the same as saying “women are naturally good with babies” or “men are good at maths”.

Why did you even post here? Why aren’t you listening to the people telling you that chivalry is sexist bollocks while compassion (and feminism) should be universal?

Original poster
Storm4star · 19/07/2018 15:05

You have an example of men carrying in shopping and bags while women made them meals

No, I did not say that. I said about carrying bags, there was no "while women made meals" so don't twist what I said.

Ok fine, I'm a sexist, gloating, misogynist. Happy now? Grin

OP posts:
PitterPatterOfBigFeet · 19/07/2018 15:07

While men are on average physically stronger it is totally irrelevant in most cases. Any healthy adult male or female is capable of standing on the bus so both women and men should give up their seat for someone who needs it more. Both men and women should be aware and considerate of people around them; if someone's coming through a door behind you hold it open. If someone is struggling with a load of heavy boxes offer to give them a hand if you can.

speakingwoman · 19/07/2018 15:14

The OP reminds me of someone I once met on a train.

I was standing - and struggling - with two babies on a very crowded train. One (the toddler) was on a seat, the other in my arms. Eventually, a young lad and his girlfriend said "we can't bear it any longer, please take our seats." The young man initiated it and his girlfriend looked super-proud of him, as she should. Warm looks all round.

Next thing I know, an older lady comes down the crowded aisle to ask why I hadn't booked a seat. Turns out she was the grandmother of the young lad. To everyone's mortification, she gave me a "we don't mind, but you can book a seat ..." lecture in a patronising posh voice.

So - someone this silly person had raised a gentleman. How is beyond me.

OP, next time a man does something bad, please try to observe your tendency to blame women.

Original poster
Storm4star · 19/07/2018 15:15

Nothing that's been said on this thread has really changed my mind about any of it. If that makes some of you (because it hasn't been everyone) throw up your hands in despair then so be it.

I honestly don't care how you label me. But I am allowed to have a differing opinion, every man and woman has that right. I don't think that just because I raised something in a way that rankled with people means it's necessarily "goady". MN is ultimately a "chat" forum. We shouldn't have to sit editing everything we write to make sure no one takes it the wrong way. If you think it's goady just don't respond! Why would you? There's been a fair few goady things said to me on here that I've just ignored.

I do actually think this is going round in circles now so I don't think there's a huge amount more to say.

OP posts:
TheNavigator · 19/07/2018 15:20

Nothing that's been said on this thread has really changed my mind about any of it

Great, so you are going to continue treating your son like a little prince while blaming women for anything that you don't like. Way to raise a 'gentleman' aka misogynist.

AngelsSins · 19/07/2018 15:28

I mean so sick of feminism being blamed for everything, and usually by someone who clearly had no idea about what feminism is Hmm

Train101 · 19/07/2018 15:46

Wasn't the OP in the other thread in the priority seat anyway when she didn't need it?
So technically she should have been the first to move.

You should be polite and kind to everyone regardless of sex. That means helping people less able then you. It shouldn't mean able bodied women get better treatment then able bodied men.

Ennirem · 19/07/2018 15:47

If you think it's goady just don't respond!

Err um. It's chat, not "let's all agree with the OP". Chat isn't restricted to agreement. And by posting here you ASKED people to either agree or disagree! Which tbf when you know you are posting to a largely female, largely feminist audience with the question "are reactionary gender standards to be praised" is a little bit goady!

AngelsSins · 19/07/2018 15:50

And that thread where 10 men sat and ignored a pregnant women echoed what I have observed. And that is where I feel something has gone wrong

Ok, so why are you looking to blaming women, feminists specifically (when you’re clearly ignorant about what feminism is), rather than men?

Kingkiller · 19/07/2018 15:57

The problem lies in raising your son to treat able-bodied, fully competent adult females as though they need or want special treatment just by virtue of the fact that they are female. It's old-fashioned, patronising bollocks.

It doesn't matter two hoots whether men are generally physically stronger than women, because it doesn't require a great deal of physical strength to open a door, stand up on a train or walk on the outside of the pavement. You know full well that the reason for this 'chivalry' has bugger all to do with thinking women are actually physically incapable of doing these things.

Original poster
Storm4star · 19/07/2018 16:41

Ok, here is an example of the types of things I struggle with, with feminism.

I know now that I'm not supposed to talk about other threads but it is, to me, a perfect example of why I (and I admit it) don't really understand certain elements of feminism.

They are talking about shared maternity/paternity leave being enforced. So mum and dad both get equal time at home with baby. Now, I can see the advantages of that. Obviously. But, the working women I've know who have had children have mostly wanted their full maternity leave. They would have been most upset at being "forced" to go back to work and have to hand over the other half to dad. Or have the time cut in half because both parents are home (not sure of the practicalities of how its supposed to work). This to me is taking choice "away" from women. And that kind of thing is what I struggle with. Same as a pp saying she would lie if she needed time off for menopause. She shouldn't have to lie! I don't see what that is achieving.

I guess what I'm saying is, not all of us want this world that you are striving for. I also don't think it's either you're a feminist or a misogynist. I think there is a very large middle ground. I don't like things like SAHMs being criticised for not having a job outside the home because again, to me, this is about taking choice away from women. I would like it to be the case where men and women offer seats equally, not where a man offers and is then sneeringly told he's being patronising just "because" he's a man (from a pp).

These are things I will never be able to get on board with and yes, it is absolutely fine if 50 or 500 people want to disagree with me. If I just wanted people to agree with me I certainly wouldn't be posting on AIBU! But you know what, this is my stance on things and I'm allowed to have that. And maybe I am a bit old fashioned but again, I'm allowed to be that way. It's my life. Just don't seek to presume that everybody wants what you want and that we're somehow just too "stupid" to see it.

OP posts: