To have raised a gentleman?

[Storm4star]

Off the back of another thread, where people are saying men shouldn’t have to give up their seat for a pregnant lady,

I raised a gentleman. He’s in his 20s and gives up his seat on a train for an elderly person or pregnant woman. We had a lovely moment in Japan where he gave up his seat for an elderly lady (men are notoriously bad there for thinking they take precedence over women) and we saw her rummaging in her bag and, as she got off, she gave him a beautiful handmade gift she had there, to say thank you. It was such a sweet moment. Is this so wrong?

Why does feminism mean that men can’t show manners and decency to other human beings because they are female? Is it really so insulting? My son cooks and cleans and is fully aware that any woman in his life should be treated as an equal. However, he is also kind and caring and was raised to treat women respectfully and with kindness. To help them if they need help.

For the most part, women are not as physically strong as men. Men do not need to go through pregnancy, childbirth, period issues, menopause (which I am certainly currently struggling with) etc etc. Why are we pretending that our bodies are the same? Is equal pay and treatment dependant on proving you are physically as “tough” as a man?

I’m actually not sorry that I have raised him to be the man he is, because I am proud of him. I think feminism is a bit skewed to think that we have to be “just like men” to earn equality.

Read GunpowderGelatine post. Do you really think it wouldn’t be strange if you posted this the other way round?

Maybe have a read of the feminist boards, it probably isn’t what you think and you will likely come across some really interesting things you hadn’t thought of that you will be able to pass onto your DC.

No one is saying you should 'tough it out' OP where did you get that from just that if you do need a seat men aren't chivalrous for giving you one any more than women are. And no one gets to be fawned over for not being rude

But hey, I should just tough it out so as not to show any “feminine weakness”.

Stop being disingenuous. If you're less able to stand because you're going through the menopause then yes, a seat should be made available for you. But you have to accept that menopause isn't obvious to look at, and people simply might not know that you need a seat - especially if you are not elderly.

Many people who have invisible disabilities struggle because they look more able bodied than they are and people don't realise that they need a seat. The usual practice is for them to request a seat if one hasn't been made available. Surely you can do the same and that's a better situation than a blanket rule that men must always give up their seats for women, regardless of the necessity?

In your scenario you could be struggling to stand in a train carriage where several able bodied women are sitting, but none of them obliged by common decency to offer you a seat because they are women. Doesn't that now seem absurd?

I refuse to believe it's better for women overall that men view us as perpetually weaker and in need of cosseting on the off chance that it might lead to us getting a seat on the train now and then. I would rather stand in a thousand trains than have the CEO of my company be a man who was raised to think of women as weaker and in need of special measures to help them get through life, because it's THAT attitude that keeps women out of boardrooms.

Your son sounds like a nice person. I am trying to raise my daughter to be a nice person too- to do her equal share of the cooking and cleaning without resentment and help people who need it. It sounds like your son does these things without expecting special recognition and a Blue Peter badge, and I hope my daughter won't either. I'm definitely a feminist btw.

I also can't get over how low the bar is being set here. Men are gentlemen for giving up a seat for a pregnant lady - what does that honestly say about our expectations? It's applauding them for doing the absolute bare minimum

I do think that by saying we are capable of everything that men are, that we have shot ourselves in the foot a bit
But this isn’t what feminists are saying. Just look at sport - women aren’t as physically capable as men and that’s exactly why feminists are angry at men entering women’s sporting competitions, etc.

And this is what I was saying, I have raised my son to be a helpful man but don’t you think this is the absolute minimum of parenting, to raise our children to be kind and helpful?

I’m not saying people should be fawned over for not being rude. I am saying people should stop being so rude in the first place! And yes, when you raise children they learn these values from you, in the first instance. And I think that if you’re displaying an attitude of women don’t need help from men, then it can easily tip into them not ever offering help.

My son knows i’m not some weak little woman. I work, I do the DIY and decorating. He cooks for himself. I haven’t brought him up to think that there are particular roles that men and women do. Yes, some women may be stronger than their husbands physically but that’s not the norm. And men don’t have periods, pregnancy, menopause, as I said before. If there is heavy shopping to carry then he carries it because he is stronger. My DD is weaker than me! So she can’t carry the heavy shopping. I just don’t think it’s wrong to admit these things.

I know that this is not what this thread is about but I wouldn’t want you to be my MIL!

but don’t you think this is the absolute minimum of parenting, to raise our children to be kind and helpful

Absolutely. But clearly boys aren’t being raised that way or the discussion would have never come up.

All of my children are well mannered and thoughtful. They were all taught to offer seats where necessary - and still do. My son does feel physically protective towards his girlfriend and sisters but they definitely have the upper hand more generally. He would always collect his girlfriend when she finishes a shift at 10:30pm He pays for more because he’s a much higher earner.
My future son in law will pack the bags into the car as they are heavy. Meanwhile my daughter cooks his breakfast. It’s about courtesy, manners, thoughtfulness and not necessarily just being gentlemanly. A considerate partner is nice though. I’d be embarrassed if any of mine remained seated when someone heavily pregnant or elderly remained standing - although would forgive them if it was someone menopausal - which isn’t a disability or particular need anymore than a period is.

I just don’t think it’s wrong to admit these things. Nor do feminists though, that’s the whole point.
I really think you are misunderstanding what feminists are saying in terms of men and women being equal. It sounds like it’s actually similar to your viewpoint but you think they are saying something else when they’re not!

I also agree with PPs that you might find a look around the feminist board here interesting. There's an awful lot of stuff about trans issues there at the moment- specifically about how self identification poses a threat to womens' rights- but there is plenty of other stuff too.

If you do have a look round and see problem issues being discussed eg strategies to cope with the fact that, as a class men commit the majority of violent crime or as a class men do less housework on average than women even if they are with women who work full time, please be aware that we know that not all men (eg your son) are like that. We used to put a specific Not All Men Are Like That disclaimer on every post, then it was shortened to NAMALT, then it was dispensed with altogether and it's just assumed, so we can spend more time thinking about how these issues affect women. Similarly, we know that men can be victims of violent crime too, but the effect of crime on women is focused on, because it's the FWR board, not a general personal/community safety board, for example.

There are lots of different opinions on the FWR board, as feminists tend to be quite a hetereogenous lot, with a real mix of different life experience. Much like the population in general I suppose. Enjoy your browsing and posting if you do decide to come over.

But clearly boys aren’t being raised that way or the discussion would have never come up.

I think that some boys aren’t and some girls aren’t. Personally, I have noticed more men giving up seats, offering to help, etc than women. It sounds like you have noticed the opposite, maybe it’s a regional thing.

I think though that if I posted along the lines I’ve taught my daughter to be kind and helpful to others, she cooks and cleans and knows to treat people with respect and kindness it would be wired, even if I was posting on the back of the last number of times I’ve been in public and needed help and men have come to help and women have sat there (true for me).

If a woman stands up for an elderly woman (as I have done in the past), is it just being polite? Whereas men get to be chivalrous for doing the exact same thing?

But only on Mumsnet men are patronising for doing the same thing. Crazy.

Ok this is from the other thread that I refer to, for those who haven’t seen it. She is on a train with 10 men sitting around her...

I looked around expecting someone i.e. a man to offer their seat but no one did. I stood up and she took my seat

Now, you can say OP is wrong to have “expected” the man to do it. But with a ratio of 10 men and 1 woman, the only one to offer the seat was the 1 woman. And it’s clear from what she wrote, that there was a pause where any of the 10 men could have offered their seat. So none of these 10 men were raised to be kind and helpful? This is where I think something has gone wrong somewhere. And my post was a follow on from that. It wasn’t meant to be some kind of “stealth brag” or saying my son should be applauded for offering a seat. It was on the back of the thread I reference above. I maybe should have linked it to make that more clear.

With regards to feminism, I will totally admit that I am not that knowledgable about it. And yes, I think I will browse the feminism boards!

I agree with a pp. I think “some” men like to throw back feminism at us as an excuse to be assholes!

Given the amount of unpleasant men we here about on these threads, thank you for raising a nice one. Let's hope he stays that way!

You clearly have no idea at all what feminism is, but apart from that congratulations

YANBU Storm my son is the same and I am proud of him . He would help anybody (male or female) that needed it.

several men just sat there while the pregnant lady stood. Were none of them raised to be decent human beings?
Actually yes that’s exactly what’s going on.
They’ve been raised a man being superior to women and not needing to make any effort for them, whilst women should make all the efforts to make it easy for them.

The threads on MN are full of those men.
And so it is in RL too.

Now, you can say OP is wrong to have “expected” the man to do it. But with a ratio of 10 men and 1 woman, the only one to offer the seat was the 1 woman.

Well, she was unreasonable. Any one of the 11 people could equally have given up their seat. That sort of is the point of equality. And while I’m not surprised, given that we do still live in a patriarchy, that a woman was the first to be considerate, I don’t think a one-off incident proves much.

I was waiting at a train station the other day and a woman on crutches came up. Any of two dozen men or women of all ages could have given her a seat, but it was me who did. And while I quietly judged those who didn’t, I didn’t judge the men more harshly than the women.

I think that’s why TAAT (thread about a thread) are discouraged as it’s hard for people to follow without seeing the other thread. You may have been better posting about your DS on that thread.

In terms of some men not being raised to be kind and helpful, yes of course. Same for some women. I think what people are pointing out is that if someone needed a seat giving up and 10 women sat there and the only man stood up, people wouldn’t dream of posting about how their daughter is helpful and cooks and cleans!

But yes, definitely read the feminist board as hopefully your eyes will be opened and you’ll understabd what lots of posters are trying to say on this thread!
You’re obviously conscious of raising your DC well so if you like what you read, pointing them in the right direction in terms of being aware of the issues women are facing currently will be just as valuable as teaching them to be kind to others.

You could have made the same point without being quite so insufferably self-congratulatory about it.

Absolutely. But clearly boys aren’t being raised that way or the discussion would have never come up.

So this whole thread exists for the purpose of everyone giving you a pat on the back and saying well done to you because you've raised a son who exhibits signs of basic human decency?

Fine - well done! As lots of PPs have said your son sounds like a nice, normal person. Good on you

So, I am saying, some of us do still raise sons to be chivalrous but Is that considered wrong in today’s society, and if so, why?

It isn’t wrong, but you shouldn’t raise your child to have manners and decency because he’s a male. You should do that anyway.

As I said, i’m going through the menopause. I am one of those that is really suffering with it. I may “appear” as physically able to stand as my male counterpart but actually I get dizzy spells and sitting down helps. But hey, I should just tough it out so as not to show any “feminine weakness”

So that’s your experience. You might need a seat. Surely you understand the difference between anecdote and fact?

OP, my mum was pregnant in the 60s and working. She says men never gave up their seat, it was always older women who had obviously been pregnant themselves and could empathise. I am not sure when your imaginary 'age of chivalry' was meant to exist and why you blame women/feminism for the actions of selfish men.

Your son sounds OK, but you are lauding him as a little hero for being half decent, which is not good.