To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

It is perfectly conceivable that the other inmates are provoking them

Have you read this man's history? Child killing, baby rape, anger issues, various assaults? Yet you think the issue might be that he was provoked by his victims, not that he was just continuing the pattern of violence he has committed all his life? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?

Nobody is defending the crime but to make it about transsexuality is ridiculous.

No one is 'making it about transsexuality'. This is a man who raped a baby, transitioned to a transwoman and got moved to a female prison.

Let me nail my colours to the mast.

Do I think that being transsexual is a "real thing"? Yes - I think there are people who genuinely and sincerely wish and believe that they ought to have been born in a body of the opposite sex.

Do I think it's possible that such feelings have some sort of biological underpinning? Yes, though I think the causes are multifactorial - there's a possible biological component, and a strong social component (as evidenced by the fact that the anthropological evidence suggests that so-called third genders are much more common in societies with very rigid sexually stereotyped roles for men and women).

Do I think that having such feelings means the person in question actually is or can become the opposite sex? Emphatically no.

Do I believe that people who are trans should have human rights and be treated with kindness and respect? Yes, of course.

Does that extend as far as giving transwomen (born biologically male) women's rights? No, because women's rights are there to redress the imbalance in rights we have due to the unique circumstances and vulnerabilities which come from our biology.

For these reasons I'd fully support specialist trans wings in prisons (because to leave transwomen in the male estate does leave them vulnerable in all sorts of ways a civilized society should not countenance), but will never support putting transwomen prisoners into the female estate.

The same arguments extend to women's sports, women's domestic violence shelters, women's rape crisis centres and women's right to ask for a fellow biological woman to conduct intimate examinations if she wishes.

I personally am happy for transwomen to be treated according to the legal fiction in pretty much all other spheres - if a transwoman Jane wants to go to work as an accountant and be called Jane and referred to as she/her by her colleagues, and not subject to harrassment or discrimination in the workplace, that should of course be her right. I will engage in that polite legal fiction. I will not extend it to circumstances where women will be harmed by that polite legal fiction.

Hormone treatment doesn't undo all of the strength, muscle mass etc that a transwoman has, any more than it changes her skeleton to that of a female.

Have a look at that video of the transwomen kicking the shit out of the tube worker and tell me about their reduced strength. Or to put it another way, who would you rather fight off if you were attacked, a natal female or a transwoman?

fwiw I don't believe this person to be trans at all, I believe there are normal trans people out there who are probably horrified this evil scum claims to be one of them.

Hangingaroundtheportal,

From what I can gather they transitioned surgically in April 2018. They had been identifying as a woman from 2009 and in a female prison from 2010.

The lack of info from 2010 to 2018 about this person, their behavior and character is worrying.

I would also like to repeat that this person has said that they believe they did nothing wrong and the physiologists who've had extensive contact with this person believe that they are a high risk for reoffending.

But that there are situations where biological reality trumps internal sense of gender identity, and this is one of them

You seem to be saying a man can only transition temporarily at the whim of who, a judge? That seems inhumane!

I am not for or against trans but make a proper argument for it other than "it is wrong because one evil trans-person did a bad thing". An evil person will do bad things whether they are called a man or a woman.

I don't think people are saying being trans is 'wrong'. People are saying that a line needs to be drawn when it comes to protecting the rights of women, and that putting a man who raped a baby with his penis in a woman's prison is crossing that line. Even if that man says he is a woman.

And as others have said, language matters around this stuff. Men who have committed heinous crimes start transitioning, get called 'she', get reported in the media as women, suddenly 'women are just as bad as men' when it comes to this stuff and the chances to call out male violence and actually try and do something about it start to diminish.

It's an evil person, man or women doesn't come in to it. Or is your message really a women could never do this? Remember Hindley?

It's evil and the person deserves no rights, he should be left to rot in a prison. I care not which one, his gender is of no relevance to this. That poor baby though.

That seems inhumane!

No. What's inhumane is the rape of a baby, FFS, and the murder of a three year old child. That is fucking inhumane.

The message is that a male with greater strength than most women is imprisoned in close quarters alongside women, who are vulnerable because of their biology, and his predilection to severe sexual assault and violence. Which I don't think will disappear in a sparkly puff of pink smoke if his penis and testicles are no longer attached.

ClaryFray
It's an evil person, man or women doesn't come in to it.
It comes into it when it determines who has to share a prison cell with them
Do you think prisons should be mixed sex?

It's an evil person, man or women doesn't come in to it. Or is your message really a women could never do this? Remember Hindley?

Nope, no one has said women never do this. Don't know what Myra Hindley has to do with this?

A man who have raped a baby with his penis should not be in a women's prison. If you believe they should, simply on his say so, then you might as well advocate for abolishing sex segregation is prison full stop. If man/women doesn't come into it?

You seem to be saying a man can only transition temporarily at the whim of who, a judge? That seems inhumane!

Gender is a social construct. That doesn't of course mean that it doesn't have important legal consequences. Money, nationality, etc - social constructs with important real world consequences. But all social constructs are subject to gate keeping and some sort of social contract about their applicability - they rely on some sort of social consensus about their applicability.

Money - you can't just scribble "I promise to pay the bearer on demand of the sum of 10 pounds" on an old bus ticket and expect to buy lunch with it. Nationality - you can't just rock up in the US and say "I've decided I'm American, issue me with a social security number so I can work."

Likewise engaging in the legal fiction of changing sex. You shouldn't be able to simply show up in some sphere reserved for women for important biological reasons (women's sport, women's prisons, a woman-only domestic violence shelter) and say "I feel like a man today, let me in."

That's not inhumane, that's the way the real world works.

And I think it's perfectly legitimate, if a baby rapist says "I feel like a woman" to turn round and say "you can feel whatever you like, sunshine, but you've chosen to commit the ultimate act of male violence, so we're not going to pander to those feelings."

I'll save my worrying for the inhumane treatment you'd happily dole out to the incarcerated women you expect to share showers and sleeping quarters with a male rapist.

More accurately - it highlights how insulting, ridiculous and dangerous it is to alloow men to just insist they are an actual woman, despite being an XY chromosomed, Penis weilding baby rapist.

Are you going to also insist he needs to be in a womans prison with vulnerable women? If not, why not?

This fuck should not be able to change identity AT ALL

So if any trans criminal is in danger they should be put in isolation for life? Or are Mnetters happy to allow prisoners to carry out mob executions on trans people? If not then what is the alternative, trans prisons?

Shall we tear up human rights? What about gay prisoners, should they have their own prisons as well?

Hindley is infamous because of the rarity of women committing such horrendous crimes. Can you name another like Hindley? There are many more men who murder and rape children.

RTFT, Walking. I explicitly said it would be inhumane to keep transwomen in the male estate, and that there should be specialist trans wings for such prisoners to be placed in.

How about you answer a question - is it inhumane to expect a woman in prison for non-payment of a TV licence, or handling stolen goods, to have to share communal showers and a shared cell with a convicted rapist who committed his rape with his penis? I think it is. What do you think?

Remember Hindley?

So because Myra Hindley existed and did horrible things, women in a prison have to share their space with a dangerous male who is child rapist? The arguments presented on this thread about why women prisoners should be put at risk have been so wrong-headed I sometimes wonder if people are being serious. (Sadly I think they are.)

he needs to be in a woman's prison with vulnerable women
We dont know if there is vulnerable women in there. It could be a high security prison with other dangerous and violent women.

As a thought experiment, if a gene therapy where to be invented that was able to introduce, sustain and proliferate the XY chromosome to a transwomans DNA would that make them more authentic?

So if any trans criminal is in danger they should be put in isolation for life? Or are Mnetters happy to allow prisoners to carry out mob executions on trans people? If not then what is the alternative, trans prisons?

So you are saying that because men are violent and might endanger the life of a transwoman, it's women who should move over and give up their right to a sex segregated space so that the transwoman can share with them instead?

What is wrong with the idea of a third space for transwomen prisoners? A trans wing in a male prison?

What about gay prisoners, should they have their own prisons as well?

No idea what gay people have to do with this? Gay people in prison go to the correct prison according to their sex? Prisons are sex segregated.

So if it is female to male trans - they are ok to go into female jails because they are biologically female. If they attack a female prisoner - then it isn't rape as it isn't a real penis. Also they have the same strength and wouldn't sexually attack anyway because they are not socially conditioned to do so.

As a thought experiment, if a gene therapy where to be invented that was able to introduce, sustain and proliferate the XY chromosome to a transwomans DNA

We always get the same fucking fairy stories. Meanwhile, some poor woman is sharing space in a women's prison with a dangerous rapist of a baby.

"introduce, sustain and proliferate the XY chromosome to a transwomans DNA"

...pardon?

uses big words but doesn't know what allosomes males have...

The very first transgender prisoner to have sex reassignment surgery in England and Wales was John Pilley in 1999, convicted of attempted murder and kidnapping.

He was subsequently moved to a female prison as Jane Anne Pilley.

He then changed his mind about being a woman and was transferred back to a male prison at his request. He had further surgery to undo the first surgery.

It would have been more "humane" to deny his request for surgery in the first place.