To feel sickened that this man is being referred to in this way (WARNING UPSETTING CONTENT)

[bigoldscaredycat]

This man raped a three month old baby boy to the point where the baby needed corrective surgery.

He is now in a women’s prison in Canada where he has beaten up a female inmate.

THIS is where self ID leads. Men like this being incarcerated with women and their crimes being counted as female.

torontosun.com/news/national/feds-deny-paying-for-convicted-pedophiles-implants

www.newwestrecord.ca/dangerous-offender-in-b-c-loses-appeal-for-day-or-full-parole-1.23279132

Go on, Mumsnet, delete me for deliberately misgendering a male baby rapist.

THIS.IS.A.MAN.

Perhaps this story will illustrate why feminists are so up in arms about self ID.

I would love to see even the staunchest anti-women transactivist tell me that this person is a woman and that they belong in a women’s prison.

I did the whole explanation of various levels of anatomy upthread, if jellybean was actually interested they would have read that.

So from a basic anatomically point yes she /he is anatomically female

Ermm. No he isn't.

Post op transwomen do not have a vagina, labia and a clitoris. They have surgery to create something that looks like those things.

But they do have the external female anatomy while they are presently alive.

This is not correct. NO amount of hormonal manipulation will rid a man of his strength - men are sculpted by testosterone - bigger lungs, more robust skeleton, even the muscles don’t attophy much with female hormones. It is VERY dangerous to push the viewpoint that just adding some female hormones reduces a male to female levels of strength and stamina. It doesn't.

Anatomically, they have not changed sex - would you insist a soldier who had had severe genital injuries from an IED was female? Or a man who had had genital cancer and surgery was a female? Of course not.

You cannot change sex.

I can't believe that anybody is happy to call this 'person' a woman or even believes it. In the absence of capital punishment (shame) this 'person' should be ideally be incarcerated with the most violent and depraved males int he system and there should be no pandering to his delusions of being a woman whether they are true dysphoric feelings (unlikely) or a canny attempt at softer treatment.

What about trans women who did non violent crimes while male?
Once a male, always a male ( unless you're a giant clam I think). They should be in a male prison. The rights of female prisoners not to be housed with a biological male are in direct conflict with, and trump, a biological male's wish to be officially treated as female.

Just making the point that sadly they are recognised as female due to full transitioning and have had the surgery

the redjellybean

You do not need to have had any genital surgery to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate

I think there should be trans prisons. But for as long as people are happy for males to be housed with smaller, physically weaker females, that's not going to happen. Why spend the money. It's only women, after all.

I am baffled by the determination of those who think that a change in genitalia and some medication makes a male female, or makes a male exactly like a woman in terms of physical strength.

A PERSON of any gender or sex who commits this type of crime is an evil deviant who doesn't deserve human rights, that's not going to change after chopping his dick off and stuffing him full of hormones. That doesn't make him less dangerous. That doesn't change his sexual orientation, which is paedophile.

People are dying from the underfunding of the NHS and yet there's money to stop a murdering paedophile being a ickle bit sad awwwww. I think he should have been refused surgery and hormones and left to kill himself. Would have saved the taxpayer some cash and made the world a better place.

Using something as horrendous as baby rape to illustrate the trans debate. Shame on you.

I'm not exactly sure of the statistics but it is something like 85% of men who identify as women intend to keep their penis forever?

So most people have no surgery at all and some do have breast implants but no genital surgery.

As others have said having a penis would not bar them from getting a GRC. You don't need any surgery to get a GRC.

saratustra

Men using a belief in their ability to change sex to get access to vulnerable women. Shame on them.

There. Fixed it for you

"Using something as horrendous as baby rape to illustrate the trans debate. Shame on you".

See?

The worst thing about a baby being raped by a man is that women acknowledge the facts of it. We're the depraved ones.

You're not in the Lib Dems by any chance are you, Sara?

This is conflicting two different issues which makes me feel uncomfortable. Rape and Transgender. It is making the argument that because an evil man raped a baby and transitioned to a woman, then men should not be allowed to become women.

I am not for or against trans but make a proper argument for it other than "it is wrong because one evil trans-person did a bad thing". An evil person will do bad things whether they are called a man or a woman.

If you are against allowing 'men' to transition to 'women' that is one thing, it should not be because of this case. But if a humane society allows trans-people to have rights then they will extend to people in prison as well.

I think surgery/transplants/lab grown tissue can create most parts of the body vaginas, it might not be perfect right now but at some stage in the future it will be. Just calling it a 'fuck hole' really isn't going to fly as a reason.

And continually saying this 'woman' has greater strength therefore should be in a male prison, the hormone treatment of transitioning changes the body so it does not have greater strength.

We dont knows the details about any of the attacks in the female prison. It is perfectly conceivable that the other inmates are provoking them because they used to be a man!

It is making the argument that because an evil man raped a baby and transitioned to a woman, then men should not be allowed to become women

Its a big thread and i have probably missed it but where was this said please?

Nobody is defending the crime but to make it about transsexuality is ridiculous. It degrades all the men and women who have fought societal prejudices and gone through huge personal sacrifices to change sex. Society will always reject those who do not conform to societal norms - it is a repetition of a historical theme. Dress it up as fourth wave feminism if you like but you will find yourselves on the wrong side of history.

Using something as horrendous as baby rape to illustrate the trans debate. Shame on you".

Shame on you for not acknowledging the facts around a male rapist , child murderer and peodophile now legally gaining access to and harming vulnerable women. Virtue signalling to the extreme. Very. fucking. sad.

Its a big thread and i have probably missed it but where was this said please?
I didn't say one person said it, I am referring to the thread as a whole. It is very obvious. Evil trans rapes a baby therefore it shouldn't be allowed.

"I think surgery/transplants/lab grown tissue can create most parts of the body vaginas, it might not be perfect right now but at some stage in the future it will be. Just calling it a 'fuck hole' really isn't going to fly as a reason.

And continually saying this 'woman' has greater strength therefore should be in a male prison, the hormone treatment of transitioning changes the body so it does not have great"

Citations, please.

Nope, totally got the wrong end of the stick Walking.

What we're saying is that it's fine to allow people to present however makes them comfortable - we're not anti-tank. But that there are situations where biological reality trumps internal sense of gender identity, and this is one of them. To engage in the fiction that it is possible to change sex involves, in this instance, putting a violent male rapist and murderer in prison with vulnerable women prisoners, one of whom he has already assaulted, and that is not fair (or reasonable, or kind, or in any way defensible) to those vulnerable female prisoners.

BeyondRadicalisationPortal the first point is an assumption based on the belief that medicine/science improves over time. Do you disagree?

The second I just googled Estrogen Hormone Therapy and found one of the effects to be "You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease significantly."

Using something as horrendous as baby rape to illustrate the trans debate. Shame on you.

How to spectacularly miss the point.

But if a humane society allows trans-people to have rights then they will extend to people in prison as well.

In a humane society men don't rape, especially rape babies and kill toddlers, and have mothers defend them because of their feelz.

I personally think pedophiles should have no rights. Be they male, female, Martian or unicorn.......

saratustra

A male who claims to be a woman has raped a baby and murdered a chilid.

That makes it part of the trans debate because this is what is at the heart of it - males accessing female spaces. It's not using anything to illustrate, it's saying this is exactly what the problem is.

Its obviously a matter of interpretation walking as I certainly didnt get that from the thread

Thank you for answering

It is making the argument that because an evil man raped a baby and transitioned to a woman, then men should not be allowed to become women.

Whag do you mean 'men should not be allowed to become women'? Men cannot become women. Its impossible.

I don't disagree that in time medical science will be able to grow body parts, no. You did state "can create" though, before saying it may not be at that stage yet, which kinda contradicts your first point.

A decrease in male strength =/= "does not have greater strength [than a female]" though