Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

I'd like to always buy British - can't always afford that choice though and I suspect a lot of people are in that boat.

Camel said British innovation is the best in the world

James Dyson agrees with you. So much he closed down his operation in Wiltshire where they manufactured his vacuum cleaners to the Far East, axing over 800 jobs. And he's been calling for Brexit. Oddly enough, like football, he's not coming home.

Not

Mark of a false economy.

If you buy British the money stays in Britain so inflation is less and everyone can afford to buy British.

Economics is complicated but basically if you’re basing your countries produce source in different countries because you happen to be in a cooperative with them, you’re making yourself very vulnerable.

As we can see, if we weren’t made vulnerable because of Europe, Brexit wouldn’t be so scary.

"They will choose which part of them ‘does the farming’ and make it difficult for others to compete or to keep up. This is simply not good enough, it’s happened to our heavy industry, it’s happening to our well-loved brands like Cadbury and it’s been happening to our farming and agriculture, because Britain was ‘where the suits’ are and everything else became irrelevant in the big European wheel. "

This is just utter drivel.

UK heavy manufacturing declining was because of choices made by the UK government. Nothing to do with the EU.

Cadbury moved because they had been sold to Kraft, an American company who took that decision. It was nothing to do with the EU.

Farming, especially dairy in this country has been massively effected by the fact that UK supermarkets act as monopsony buyers of their product, forcing prices down.

Everything you have written above is some paranoid delusion

"If you buy British the money stays in Britain so inflation is less and everyone can afford to buy British. "

Rubbish.

If you only buy British then the prices will rise because the supply is not able to cope. Thus you end up with demand pull inflation.

topcat

You need to brush up on your economics. It’s really not that simple (as I explained above)

"You need to brush up on your economics."

Oh you do make me laugh.

You do realise we now import less of our food than we did outside the EU?

But with farmers who can’t survive without subsidies and tax credits?

False economy. Nobody wants this.

The rest of the UK has become nothing but fodder for London and the suits. Now that’s been voted against, the suits are unhappy. I get it.

The rural communities don’t want to compete with intensively farmed food production from Bulgaria. Get over it.

Who here is blaming the EU for anything?

Less than 15 minutes later...

As we can see, if we weren’t made vulnerable because of Europe, Brexit wouldn’t be so scary.

I think sometimes racisim is used too much. It should be xenophobia instead.

Immigration was ranked a very close second in terms of leavers vote choice.

Look at Leave publicity. Not much about the sovereignty fetish, instead an awful lot about immigration, muslims, asylum seekers, Turkey, Syrias. Farage and his copy-of-a-Nazi anti-semite posters. Leave.Eu with its corucopia of hate - e.g. If we dont leave the EU then there will be an Orlando style shooting.

I dont mind saying it. Married to someone not from the EU, I look at these headlines and absolutely revel in my moral superiority over the people who write the stories, write the headlines and all of the people who read them and nod their heads in agreement. Because I feel a basic humanity for those who are not, through accident of birth, able to live the lives we all lead.

And then there is, well, an intellectual superiority gained from being proved right. Leaving the EU was never going to be as easy as people were told. Its almost as if people didnt understand the role of the common market and customs arrangements and how easy it is for goods and people to come and go in a common area. So jobs are being lost, investment moving overseas and a complete farce in politics where "the will of the people" has been to think we are leaving the EU yet having none of the benefits removed when we go. I wish the Government would be brave and and just take the hit and leave with no deal. Because then the real truth of Brexit will hit those who voted for it. And it will hurt. But since experts and knowledge and understanding facts have been deemed superfluous to emotional decision making then people deservce to be hurt. Never mind the absolute idiots that belived the number of the side of the damned bus.

So yes, I feel superior morally and intellectually. Because a lot of what I held dear was attacked by the referendum.

Simple economics, UK runs at a trade deficit. We're fucked!

"But with farmers who can’t survive without subsidies and tax credits?"

Farmers have been subsidised, and protected in other ways for a long time. Long before the EU.

"The rural communities don’t want to compete with intensively farmed food production from Bulgaria. Get over it."

So they'll compete with the farmed produce from Africa instead? Good luck with that.

Or are you arguing that the UK should protect its farming industry from competition?

Your economics is rubbish, and your arguments based on fantasy.

TheElements maybe look up ‘blame’ in the dictionary.

I’ve not blamed anyone.

Camel, I live rurally. I’m fortunate my beef and lamb comes from within 500m. I saw them growing up. My eggs are donated by neighbours. Milk is dropped off by a local farm. Honey and jams come from our own or friends gardens. My fishman delivers local fish and shellfish from within 15 miles. We’re fortunate but it’s not cheap and most families would struggle to pay the additional costs of locally produced food. I paid £50 for a box of crabmeat. Delicious but not necessarily what you’d give the family on a school night.
I’m not a suit in London and can see the disaster Brexit is for the majority. Unfortunately some of our smaller farmers will go out of business without subsidies. Most wont be able to survive without EU labour.
Most of the country does not live in a rural idyll and don’t have neighbours supplying food gifts. Most food is imported and may be in short supply. Personally, we’ll be OK regardless as have second passports and sufficient investments to continue much as before but we are still reliant on the wider society as we age. We need EU goods and workers as a nation and one has to think of the wider picture.
It is a calamity.

topcat the difference is import tax.

Yes we might get cheaper produce from Africa but the tax on top of that levels the playing field.

It amazes me how many people state that we were ‘doing great’ completely unaware of the reality for anyone who didn’t wear a suit and work in london. We haven’t been ‘doing great’ for a long time.

The farming, fishing and other rural industries have been squeezed more and more.

Maybe it was fine in london, it wasn’t anywhere else. Had that been acknowledged, we wouldn’t be in this mess. But we are now.

So let’s look at what we can make and trade that isn’t just men in suits, because the uk simply doesn’t want to exist in that context anymore. Move on.

‘Rural idyll’

Yes that’s what I’ve been talking about

You’re stating it’s cheaper for you to buy crabmeat from abroad than for someone to bring it to your door from a local source.

This is entirely the problem with the economics in this country.

This is why people are pissed off.

"topcat the difference is import tax. "

No, consumers pay tariffs, not the importer.

We can buy cheaper produce from Africa now, and have tariffs on them, but we don't.

Your undwerstanding of economic is really poor.

And you have voted for your own fantasy of Brexit, not what was actually on the ballot.

None of what you want will come to pass.

Go look at the Economists for Britain proposals and tell me what happens to agriculture.

‘Consumers pay tariffs’

Exactly.

My economic understanding is very sound, thank you.

You have no idea how/if I voted.

The Utopia many leavers aspire to doesn't exist, I hate to break it to you all but we live in a capitalist society whether we are in or out of the EU. FACT!!
Level playing fields, or talk of, don't exist in Capitalism! Again, simple economics!

Your economics is not good at all, you have stated lots of things that are factually inaccurate.

Marcast

Now we get the choice not to be in a capitalist society though. We can vote left and have an increasingly socialist society, we couldn’t do that under the EU.

topcat

No, I haven’t.

I just have absolutely no urge to converse with you so I’m being as short and sharp as possible.

Yes you have.

" If you buy British the money stays in Britain so inflation is less and everyone can afford to buy British. "

Is utterly incorrect, for one it assumes that the main determinate of inflation is the value of a currency, it isn't.

You have no desire to converse with me because you can't back up your points.

Remember when I asked you to give me an example of a UK firm that had been moved to Germany?