Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

"Lazy and entitled". Rolling on the floor laughing at that one.

I agree we won't be in the anticipation of the dooms day scenario. We'll actually be in the dooms day scenario.

And by the way, most remainers could probably live with the Norway option as the least worst option (And even Norway says that's worse than we currently have) but that isn't what is being proposed. What is being proposed and I'm quoting Ken Clarke is 'we will be the only country in the world without a trade deal'. We will be at ground zero.

@Tomatoesrock - oh yes our welfare system is incredibly generous. Just ask anyone awaiting a PIP appeal who is having to attend a food bank...

The whole thing is a disaster that shows no sign of ending. I can't believe Cameron allowed it to happen. The worst leadership cock up for decades.

Enthusiasm people are free to make their own decisions. The "we don't need experts" quote kind of sums it up for me. If someone chooses to ignore facts because they don't like being told what to do, then they need to face the consequences when it all goes pear shape. I have heard countless politicians and lay people saying that the vote was decisive, we want to leave so we need to just leave, and that a no deal scenario is worth it to get it done. Absolutely all the evidence points to this being utterly disastrous. Tell me why I would respect someone who thinks this is a good idea?

All the noise about leaving has come from the right. 25 years ago it was Majors Tory rebels, today it is the brexiteers. The right wing press has encouraged it for decades. What is the circulation of the morning star compared to the daily mail?

Remainers are fully aware of social injustice, I grew up in one of the most deprived cities in the UK. What they dont understand is why anyone would think voting to trash your own economy will help anyone.

The "we don't need experts" quote kind of sums it up for me.

Yeah me too, but possibly for different reasons.

The quote didn't say that, the thing that was said, was that people are sick of experts (from organisations with impressive-sounding acronyms) making pronouncements and consistently getting things wrong.

Which is apparently too complex a sentence for some people to parse, the same people who haughtily decried it for ignorance of what they (mis)understood it to mean.

So yeah, about right.

Ghost

Again, missing the point of the thread.

The thread has said that the moral superiority of the remainers is palpable and, fundamentally doing NOTHING to improve the situation.

For every remainer screaming ‘but we don’t produce enough milk’ there is a pile of leavers who have watched as farmers have been undercut out of their generations old dairy business by lower quality, intensive farmed ‘Europe milk’. Nobody bloody WANTS to be reliant on Europe for our dairy!! That’s absurd.

So you might see it as ‘trashing the economy’ but for those men and women who have watched their livelihoods turn from proactive and comfortable to ‘might as well not bother’, it is ALREADY TRASHED.

If you actually listened to why people voted rather than calling everyone racists, you’d realise that and perhaps stop making out like the things you catastrophise are anything but examples of a country suffocating under this big European umberella

Okay, I've read something that's REALLY pissed me off this morning. Article in the Financial Times this morning about dropping housing prices in London. This should be a silver lining to the economy crashing, right? Ordinary people can afford to buy property (if they have jobs, and can afford food when even dairy is a luxury, but let's just overlook that for a moment.)

But no. What's actually happening is that "luxury flat" developments aren't selling like they used to, but instead of dropping the prices and selling them to individuals (like first time buyers) they are ONLY selling them at discount in bulk. So they are being snapped up by corporate landlords (ie big companies) for a song while many actual, working people STILL can't afford to buy a flat. Instead they are going to be stuck renting in a country where the economy is wrecked and renters have few rights because gov policy for decades has been to encourage home ownership.

People have had a right to be angry about how the financial crisis has been paid for by ordinary people instead of by the people who caused it, but my God Brexit is not serving their anger AT ALL. It's pushing them even further away from justice, while the papers and the government all whitter away about how they're getting "the will of the people."

What a con. Incredible.

Luxury London homes being sold in bulk as demand drops

Camel, you're missing the point of the responses. Yes the economy is imbalanced, with too few of the benefits going to to few people at the very top (and mainly in the South East), but even after the financial crisis there was an effort to stop real chaos. The real effort was international - the US, UK, EU, Canada, Japan, China, everyone pitched in. The financial crisis revealed a LOT of faultlines as poorer places took the brunt of financier's almighty screw-up - especially in the UK, where the "there's no more money" line was taken as a sign that poor people were getting too MUCH help and needed to tighten their belts.

Now the coming crisis is UK-specific. The EU will feel a bit, but it will be much less and spread out over a lot of countries. We will get full brunt.

My grandparents were raising their children during the Great Depression. They were entirely self-sufficient (not "make do and mend" - that's luxury compared to how they lived). They remembered what it was like when people starved to death because their crops failed and none of the neighbours could help because everyone was struggling at the same time. (And crops DO fail. Farming isn't a magic tap that's always reliable - that's why food security comes from access to imports and just-in-time supply chains).

When I read the romanticising on here of how people think we'll just make do and mend because our lives are already hard and the economy is already broken, I think: "You ain't seen nothin'." Things can be exponentially harder. Developed countries have lived through that kind of "harder" before, but we appear to have forgotten how horrific it was when it was normal for families to have to decide which family member needed most to eat of an evening.

Making a truly huge number of people poorer and the already poor desperately poor is not a great way to fix inequality.

For every remainer screaming ‘but we don’t produce enough milk’ there is a pile of leavers who have watched as farmers have been undercut out of their generations old dairy business by lower quality, intensive farmed ‘Europe milk’. Nobody bloody WANTS to be reliant on Europe for our dairy
Milk is a commodity, traded on WORLD markets, there is now a shortage, hence butter price rises, UK supermarkets are not passing on these rises to the producer, not the EU's fault.
NZ moving from sheep to Dairy has had an effect on the glut of milk in recent years.
Also our failure to penetrate the Chinese market sufficiently, we just sat back on our laurels instead.

This will not change once outside of the EU, unless you want to subsidise UK farmers with higher taxes? or withdraw the UK from world trade... no dont answer that lol!

It is comments like yours that gives many remainers a superiority complex! sorry.

Pineapple

That still doesn’t equate to ‘vote leave = racist’ does it?

It equates to ‘vote leave, unaware of impact’

Or a number of other things, but it doesn’t mean that people are racist.

Which is what the thread is talking about.

No farming isn’t romanticised, it’s hard bloody work and any good society will support its farmers, however paying farmers not to farm, so that all the food is brought in from the EU, should also not be romanticised. Because as you can see, it’s also not infallible, people don’t WANT to be reliant on Europe for food (why don’t people get this) they would rather it came from here

That people are arguing that a band of countries slowly suffocating our farmers out of working the land so that produce from different EU countries can be considered ‘better’ is some how a SOCIALIST move, is laughable. There is nothing socialist about the EU. The working class of this country don’t want to buy their milk from Poland, they want to buy it from Devon.

It is inevitable that as property prices fall. Inflation will escalate exponentially. The poor and just managing will struggle to make ends meet (possibly some won’t manage), benefits won’t cover costs but there will be no increases, at a guess. If you can’t afford heating you certainly won’t be able to afford a house.
The rich will be able to take advantage of the situation. Monies held overseas will be used to snatch bargains. Far, far more of the UKs cities will be bought by non U.K. owners.
The destruction of a once powerful, rich nation is the price we are likely to pay for “getting back our sovereignty” ( which we never lost) and “taking control of our borders” ( except the Irish one).
Moral superiority doesn’t come close.

I wonder how people get out of bed sometimes.

Look you’ve come onto a thread about a specific topic to bleat irrelevantly about something else.

To summarise;

Half the country are not morally inferior racists, they just prefer locally supported, homegrown produce. This is not ‘communism’ ffs.

Farming everywhere has had to update methods, "generations old" or not. If you want to see really intensive farming though, take a look at the US where loads of small family farms were gobbled up after the Depression to make enormous super-farms so big that it's impossible to work them without overcrowding animals and using swathes of antibiotics to keep them from getting too sick. That's why the US keeps having salmonella outbreaks:

jfoodprotection.org/doi/pdf/10.4315/0362-028X-44.5.394?code=FOPR-site

And also why chorine-washed chicken is a thing over there.

When I last checked, we were NOT being told by DEFA that UK farmers were going to be able to step up and feed the country single handedly. (They won't. People used to go hungry in this country as a matter of course.) We were being told we would now get our food from the USA.

Food imports are not going to go away, unless we import more US-style intensive agriculture practices instead. (My, what an impact on the countryside that will be - hello, supermassive pig farms.)

My ongoing frustration is the way all of these points about WHERE WE ARE GOING keep getting pushed aside so people can lick their wounds over someone once pointing out that their vote put them on the bus with known racists. Really, it's time to put that aside and look at what's coming, because we are really not prepared. Even the government is talking about sending out leaflets to tell households how to prepare for a no deal Brexit! (What do you think they'll tell us to do, stock up on loo roll, tinned goods and candles?)

Update methods to Poland?

Actually, no.

You all seem pretty unaware of how large umberella cooperations like the EU operate. They will choose which part of them ‘does the farming’ and make it difficult for others to compete or to keep up. This is simply not good enough, it’s happened to our heavy industry, it’s happening to our well-loved brands like Cadbury and it’s been happening to our farming and agriculture, because Britain was ‘where the suits’ are and everything else became irrelevant in the big European wheel.

You see it all as ‘circumstantial’ I assure you, it is not.

If we want trade deals, we need stuff to trade, that stuff has been suffocated out of the country since the 1970s. I have no doubt it will take a while to get back on track but British innovation is the best in the world, we will work it out and, with a product people actually want, of course we can trade. Just not in suits anymore. Accept it, that’s not the country the people have chosen. Adapt. Stop catastrophising everything, all it does is prove the point of the leavers.

Could be milk, could be eggs, could be wheat. Someone else mentioned milk and how we ‘don’t produce enough of if

Obviously it’s easier when talking about social issues to stick to one topic to base your argument on.

This is very basic discussion skills.

So the failures of our government to listen to xyz group for years is the fault of the EU how? And leaving the EU is going to fix xyz group’s problems, which by and large weren’t caused by being in the EU, how?

Over 60% of food is imported. If you want best of British only you’ve got a lot of work to do between now and March.

TheElements

Who here is blaming the EU for anything?