Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

réduction in labour for jobs that UK nationals don't want to fill etc etc.

This is a paradoxical argument though, if we are to take MN as the sample, we have situations were businesses are not viable if they cannot pay the living wage and baseline inflation is non existent and just right wing rhetoric. Yet when it comes to staying in the EU it is accepted that farm workers are generally paid far below the minimum wage when they have to pay for onsite digs etc, it also conveniently ignores the fact that the UK is not alone in experiencing issues with farm workers due to economic factors getting better in general in eastern europe.

That argument is a soft form of bigotry, it is like the cringeworthy moment on question time when that woman said who would serve her coffee. It may not be blatant racism, and it's usually countered with a lot of mental hoops that are jumped through. It is however a contradiction as to the so called socialist with "working class routes" that many on here like to profess.

My son had radioactive iodine treatment in January. It was arranged within days. After Brexit people may have to wait weeks/months. This is what your leave vote has done. I just hope it doesn't bite any of you on the arse.

They don’t understand it or they understand it and just don’t care. It’s utterly shit.

I agree OP. My mum voted Remain for her own reasons, but was quite happy for those who voted Brexit e.g. me, as she understood we have our reasons too.

But unfortunately every other single Remainer I've met has been awful, exactly as you say: sneering, condescending and so angry yet full of themselves its been hard to be the bigger person.

I thought about my vote long and hard. I read various articles and did research. I did not vote out because of a pathetic bus. That technically didn’t say we would spend that money on the NHS. It said “let’s”.

I am quite educated (a solicitor) when doing my undergrad I actually did my dissertation on the free movement of workers!!

I object heavily to the staunch remainders who insist we are stupid because we hold a different opinion. Who decided they are right?!

It seems to me, that people only want free speech and democracy when it suits themselves.

Couldn't agree more helmet

Good for you Jimdandy What you voted for was to significanctly delay diagnostic scans and cancer treatments. As all the radioactive isotopes necessary are produced in the EU and we have to be members of Euratom to import them. We leave then we aren't members. Yes I suppose we could negotiate some sort of fuzzy membership but that will take ages.

As you're so educated you probably know that radioactive isotopes have a very short half life. We have to import them regularly from the European mainland where they are made as they degrade and become useless in a short space of time. We have no facilities to make them here.

We don't have time to negotiate a deal with the EU/Euratom that will take months or years - you think this government will do anything quickly? This will costs lives. Lives lost because we can't do diagnostic scans to inform surgery and lives lost because we can't deliver radiotherapy.

But hey, your dissertation on FOM.

So two questions Jimdandy

Did the exisence of Euratom and the consequences of the UK leaving it come up in any research you did?

If so, what made you decide that us having to delay or be unable to offer diagnostic scans and cancer treatments was worth leaving for?

I'm genuinely interested.

I did quite a bit of research into the EU, the UK economy, global relations and the (increasing) development of supranational trade blocks (everyone wants there own EU!), and I just couldn't see how the UK could leave without damaging its economy and global standing.

After the referendum, I went look for well-researched Leave arguments that really got into the technical detail on how we could and should leave. And I found one, by a man who's been campaigning for the UK to leave the EU for 30 years and has a plan for the best way to do so:

www.eureferendum.com

Unfortunately, he has been completely ignored by this government and apparently also by many people who voted to Leave, so although he has spent years working out the best way to go he's spitting mad because the government is going with the option that he views as needlessly destructive to the UK's national interest.

So if Remainers have "moral superiority", it appears that well-informed Leavers do, too.

@AndIWouldWalk500Yards

Prime example of the moral superiority. Patronising, condescending and spiteful pathetic tone.

Can’t have a reasonable debate because you are so fixated that you’re right.

I voted leave. One of my main reasons is that I am against FOM. I am against it because I think it is fundamentally racist. I feel it favours white European Christians and that we should not have this sort of bias in our immigration policy. I feel that anyone from any country should be able to come here if they have the skills we need or we have a shortage of labour.

I also feel that many of the trade policies of the EU discriminate against many poorer countries and have had a substantial effect on many smaller nations in their struggles to improve their lot. I feel that if we were able to do trade deals with these countries we could substantially help many areas of the world from where many economic migrants are coming from.
I do not feel there is any reason we can't have a fairly quick free trade deal with the EU especially since we adhere to the self same regulations and laws unlike any other country.
I don't feel the EU common agricultural policy arrangements where one size fits all works well for our farmers and I do hope that we will regain control of our fishing waters.
I have pretty much stopped commenting on the Brexit threads as I am sick of being belittled and ridiculed. Very few remainers are interested on a proper conversation on these boards. They are more interested in put downs and having a pop at you.

Actually Euratum WAS mentioned frequently before the referendum and it was widely accepted that an alternate agreement, associate membership or financial conytrivutions could be made.

Can you categorically say we will not have access to Euratom in some form when we leave the EU? The answer to that, is no.

What a cop out.

Patronising, condescending and spiteful pathetic tone.

Gosh.

Can you categorically say we will not have access to Euratom in some form when we leave the EU? The answer to that, is no.

Didn't our Theresa specifically mention leaving Euratom in her much-celebrated Article 50 letter?

You're asked a question that is quite important about how Brexit will impact on a specific topic and reply with an insult. You do your cause no good.

Posters will say pro Brexit don't answer questions and then the Brexit lobby get offended, but this happens time and again.

I did know about Euratom and was reassured that there would be a means of making new arrangements. I really can't think that any sane person would suggest that the EU is really going to with hold UK access to radio active isotopes and endanger lives.

Sure, blame the EU for us specifically withdrawing.

Nah Jimdandy just worried about people I care about who need treatment that Brexit will probably stop. I note you didn't answer my questions or engage in debate though.

And no Typhers it wasn't at all. I was kind of looking out for it. In early 2017 it was being used as an argument to revoke Article 50 because it had been pretty much overlooked by the UK government.

And no, of course I can't, but I fully expect that access will involve long and ridiculous negotations that some people just won't live long enough for.

I really can't think any sane person would leave an organisation that provides these products and services.

Whose fault ours or theirs? We are the ones choosing to leave.

I seriously hope you are right Double common sense should prevail. But once we're out I dread the amount of red tape that might get in the way. I can foresee something that now would take less than 24 hours taking a week or more with lord knows how many officials having to sign and stamp pieces of paper in triplicate.

We don't know how bloody easy we have it right now!

My main concern about leaving is the issue of deregulation and stripping away quality of goods and services and whether our employment rights are going to be negatively affected by leaving the EU. The one thing that I think that we can all agree on is that we don't want to see our quality of life affected negatively by brexit. We are assured by fervent leave politicians that we won't engage in a 'race to the bottom' but I feel that, especially in the case of a 'no deal' brexit that the temptation will be there to give up all our hard fought for protections in order to secure deals, because we no longer have the power of negotiating deals as a large trading bloc. The wealthy of our country can afford it but what about the rest of us?

@TacoLover most honest response on this thread winner.

Thing is, when someone does something stupid, it’s not illogical to assume they might be stupid.
Perhaps there are intelligent leave voters who understand the consequences of leaving. I’ve never met one and I’m not holding my breath.

Couldn't agree more isitsixoclockalready The leading Brexiteer Ministers and MPs have history in wanting to reduce worker's rights. Or red tape as they describe it. Also H&S regulations.

Perhaps there are intelligent leave voters who understand the consequences of leaving. I’ve never met one and I’m not holding my breath.

Do you ever exhibit this attitude around people without knowing which way they voted?

If you do, how would you know whether there are any intelligent people who disagree with you? Not many intelligent people will bother to engage people who do this.

I've experienced this - someone I might otherwise have been friends with spent months taking every opportunity to rant about how one political party and people are scum, idiots, murderers etc. completely oblivious to the idea people around them might vote for that party. Nobody bothered to engage at all.

Ps: there are always intelligent people who voted the opposite way to you, by the way. The world is funny like that.