Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

Mother The read out from the NATO summit is that Trump is going nowhere, and that this was agreed

'Behind closed doors, NATO leaders — Trump included — agreed to big strides on counterterrorism, new troop commitments, reforming its command structures, and boosting defense spending. Experts described the decisions as impressive for a sprawling bureaucracy that requires painstaking consensus among all 29 members.

U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May announced that Britain will be deploying an additional 440 troops to Afghanistan to help the country fight the Islamic State and the Taliban, almost doubling its commitment to the NATO-led mission, called Resolute Support.

Meanwhile, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Canada will lead a new NATO training mission in Iraq. He said up to 250 Canadian troops will deploy to Baghdad to help train and professionalize the ranks of Iraqi armed forces as they continue to battle Islamic State militants.

Canada’s new defense policy includes an increase of over 70 percent of the nation’s defense budget between 2016 and 2026, according to a press release from the Canadian government.

“We are proud to take a leadership role in Iraq, and work with our Allies and the Government of Iraq, to help this region of the Middle East transition to long-lasting peace and stability,” Trudeau said.

NATO also announced it would open two new command structures that will involve 1,200 new personnel. One is expected to be based in Norfolk, Virginia, to address maritime threats with an eye toward Russia. The other will be centered in Germany to focus on the vast logistical undertaking of moving troops and equipment around Europe to support military exercises aimed at deterring Russia.

The alliance also agreed to a new goal, dubbed in NATO jargon as the “four 30s”: to deploy 30 battalions, 30 aircraft squadrons, and 30 warships within 30 days of any crisis.

“This is a really key fix,” said Townsend, the former senior Pentagon official. He said currently, many European militaries wouldn’t be ready to respond to a fast-moving crisis without a 90-day notice. “It’s like a fire department. If your house is on fire and you call 911 and they say, ok, we’ll be there in 90 days, what good is that?”

Finally, NATO formally invited Macedonia, the small Balkan country that recently resolved a bitter name dispute with neighboring Greece, to begin talks to join the alliance.

Scaryteacher, there is no doubt that NATO is crucial in keeping the peace. Of course! Military alliances can be flipped, an international treaty can be ripped up, but if whole economies are so deeply interdependent then the case for peace is that much stronger because it's in no one's interest to consider war in the first place. I'm talking about war WITHIN Europe here, not about an external invasion. Europe was essentially created to avoid France and Germany ripping each other to shreds ever again. As they did three times in the space of 80 short years.

if there were fewer closed minds and less arrogance we would not be in this mess

Yes. If, when people had raised concerns about immigration, they hadn't been immediately been shut down as racists, we would not be in this mess. Immigration is generally a good thing. And freedom of movement is a good thing. But if people are struggling to find work or houses, or schools or get a GP appointment they are entitled to be annoyed about it and express that annoyance. What should have happened was an education programme about the value of immigration, and proper efforts made to improve infrastructure for a growing population but instead we got shouts of racism and, of course, the austerity agenda which "prevented" investment in the public services needed.

And then we wonder why Brexit won. As soon as Cameron said he was calling a referendum I knew Brexit would win. Back in 2013.

I’ve known people who claimed to have vote remain reveal in conversation that they voted Brexit. I know die hard brexit supporters and closet brexit supporters. The latter supported brexit because she couldn’t get a doctors appointment, and her kids couldn’t afford to leave home. She said immigrants don’t mind sleeping 6 to a room, working all day/night and sending money home whereas her kids needed to afford homes to start families. So many issues but not entirely wrapped up in the EU.

Tbh I thought the country would vote remain, are we sure we’d win a second referendum for leave? In more depressing news UKIP is rising in popularity again...

I don't wonder why Brexit won.

I wonder why the Brexitteers don't tell us all the good things we are going to have post-Brexit.

The latter supported brexit because she couldn’t get a doctors appointment, and her kids couldn’t afford to leave home.

She's going to have a massive shock in a couple of years.

There is a big danger that if you call someone racist and don’t listen to them, they immediately become defensive and never warm to you or vote for you again.

If you label all brexit supporters racist you end up alienating the very people you need to swing remain. So I do really take issue with morally superior lefties. They will never appeal to anyone except those who would’ve voted for them anyway.

Yes she is. As are many, many people.

I’ve made my peace with brexit. If it happens we’ll get through it, tough economic times ahead. Perhaps it will lead to a new dawn in politics where people read and think for themselves and form qualified opinions and not be so gullible when voting.

NATO didn't exist in the form that it does now in 1949, and the ESCC had the idea of binding countries together economically for peace.

You are splitting hairs.

The problem is that when you say "listen to their concerns" and then list housing, doctors appointments and jobs being effected by immigration then those concerns aren't valid.

People will also not listen to the points proving this either, because there is another source of information which confirms their bias.

In fact this whole thread shows that.

As a remainer, I do feel morally superior.

Basically, I didn't vote for this shit show, I am completely opposed to all of it. Britain (or the brexiteers) has shot itself in the foot. As a citizen and resident, I'm going to be affected, probably quite badly, as will my children.

But I am proud that I voted remain, and morally/financially/every other 'ally' I feel remain was the best position.

But we're fucked now and I am quite happy to whinge about it while still feeling superior to those who voted for it and can't seem to produce any real justification for why the sunlit uplands are so close.

The squeeze on services in our area - which voted Leave - is not connected to Immigration from EU countries. Arguably it is chronic underinvestment masked by pitting different ethnic groups against each other.

And the different ethic groups are white British and those from the Indian subcontinent. Most of whom are also British.

There are always people who like to offend people by criticising their opinions, and Brexit has brought them out of the woodwork in droves (on both sides).

Heartily sick of the whole thing.

Not as sick as you're going to be, hornbeam. It's all just getting started.

As someone who voted remain, I don’t feel morally superior but I do feel angry, and unlike most situations of my previous experience, the anger is not abating as time moves us on from June 2016; in fact if anything I feel angrier as the date to leave gets closer without any apparent plan.

I don’t believe all Brexiteers are racist, and I don’t even blame those who voted out of fears of uncontrolled immigration for doing so. There could and should have been balanced discussions about immigration without people having their sometimes-valid fears immediately shouted down as racism.

What I do find incredibly frustrating is the fact that so many of the concerns I’ve seen stated by Brexiteers are down to UK government policy rather than anything to do with the EU, and in fact some of our protections are courtesy of the EU in spite of government intentions or preferences (employee rights, environmental controls etc). If you can’t get a council house or a hospital appointment, that’s directly down to governmental policy and has always been within the government’s gift to improve. Cutting us loose from the EU is almost certain to make those issues worse, because we are currently ruled by a party which is wedded to austerity as an ideological policy, and now we have the added problem of economic fallout from Brexit which will inevitably hit poorer regions, in many cases which voted to leave precisely because of their economic/infrastructural concerns but who actually received some of the greatest proportions of EU funding. To feel that we’ll be better off by not sending £Xm every week to the EU, you have to trust that the government of the day will divert that money into policies which will benefit NHS, education, the regions – and I don’t trust the Tories to do so.

Similarly I’m annoyed at the branding of anyone who actually follows parliamentary sovereignty or judicial process – both of which we have always had – or who supports the following of same as ‘traitors’, simply because some people, egged on by the likes of the Mail, haven’t realised just how much autonomy our parliament and our courts already had.

Hear hear Bananananadaiquiri!

NATO provides security according to the narrow view: military. The broader aspects of security comprise economic security, food security, environmental security etc. The EU helps provide the framework for this as well as intertwining member states so that conflict is less likely and providing a forum to sort out issues where conflict arises without resorting to military means. The two institutions complement one another. NATO is not a substitute for security provided by the EU.

Genuinely, the only people I know who are racist, voted remain. Turns out that they care more about economics than their ideologies!

When Brexit has been discussed amongst my circles of friends, we have calm, interesting, open minded discussions. We all agree there are pros and cons. Shame mumsnet Brexit threads are never like that. Shame there were campaigns at all, and shame that we have not got a cross party government to deal with Brexit.
Gareth Southgate for PM!!

I voted leave, and have a miriad of reasons for doing so. But my belief is that the EU is a failed project due to expansion rather than further integration. If anyone spoke on your politics section I could warble on for hours (but they don’t, so I’ll carry on my arguing on TES😆)

And I disagree about remainers taking the moral high ground, I see plenty of idiots on both side! Both sides had valid points but many just looked to the media circus.

I’d say very few really had a solid understanding of what they where voting for or against. And virtually nobody can predict what the result of leaving or remaining will be as sadly crystal balls don’t work.

@Typhers - do your "miriad of reasons" (sic) include watching the GFA implode and civil war return to the United Kingdom? Or do you understand that taking control of our own borders is impossible when we have an open border with the EU and thereby accept of a Norway+++ Brexit to avoid the resumption of civil war?

From my own personal experience, the people I knew who voted remain did so because they believed continuing to trade in the current form with the EU is the best thing for the economy. They were worried about loss of passporting rights, increases in trade tarifs, réduction in labour for jobs that UK nationals don't want to fill etc etc.

The people I knew that voted leave said things like -
'Well we pay the most out of everyone to the EU' - when I showed him weare 4th gras and 5th net his response was 'well they hate us don't they'
'My MEP lives in a massive house so the EU must be a waste of money'
'All the stupid laws they impose on us'. When I asked for an example, he said I was putting him on the spot and couldn't name one. I know a couple of EU laws I don't agree with but plenty more I do.
'I want to make Britain great again'
'Because they need us more than we need them'(even though we are only 10pc of the EU GDP)
'Because they are unelected'...!
'Because the NHS is failing due to immigration' when I questioned how much chronic underfunding, and an increasingly old and fat population also contributed I just got a funny look and told people come from around the world to use it. I doubt it since its ranked 35 th in the world - people from most EU countries have better health care than the UK

There were a couple of sensible reasons like people having concerns about the future of the EU, concerns that they'd never had the chance to vote 'in' to the EU in its current guise, and people just wanting the UK to be completely in charge of its own destiny.

But on the whole, the people I spoke to, the people who voted remain had actually researched eg read studies about the net effect of immigration on the economy. The people who voted leave tended to be voting with emotion at best and didn't seem bothered about checking basic facts (a quick Google search for example told who spends the most towards the EU or how officials are elected but they couldn't be bothered to do this).

This was just my own experience and not a massive sample (I maybe know 10 people that voted leave) but I found it frustrating when people were voting based on 'facts' that were half truths that were easily disputed.

Also i understood voting analysis had shown less educated people in general were more likely to have voted leave which might be a factor?

Then there were things that people on the remain side had said would happen and got accused of scaremongering eg no labour to pick harvests or in hospitality, the EU money all going to the NHS etc etc that when it then happened was probably hard not to say I told you so.

My MIL voted leave to stop 'brown people' moving here. She truly looked dumbfounded when I explained to her that when out of the EU we would be relying on trade deals from other countries such as India, Pakistan and China all of whom would want preferential immigration arrangements. As in the UK relaxing immigration controls.

She also believed that all immigrants got benefits and a council house. Apparently my then 30 years working for DWP (I don't anymore) didn't compare to the shite that the Daily Mail reported. The DM was right and I was wrong even though it was my job to review policy.

But what shocked her the most was that her niece, who lives in Spain, might not be entitled to live in Spain anymore and that they might enact the same ridiculous 'settled status' rules that the UK is planning for EU citizens, that she might have to pay much more for travel insurance as EHIC will be gone and her flights might cost her a shit load more.

It's this level of ignorance that us remainers get pissed off with. People who believe all the shit they have read in the Daily Mail.

And then there's Euratom. Very, very important, critical for people undergoing diagnostic scans and cancer treatments. We will be forced to leave meaning no radioactive isotopes for scans or treatments. My son had radioactive iodine treatment in January. It was arranged within days. After Brexit people may have to wait weeks/months. This is what your leave vote has done. I just hope it doesn't bite any of you on the arse.