To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?

[damaged]

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment, but they are obviously not the only ones. Here at home we have moved to the right, and our future is currently uncertain.

It seems to be a trend in a lot of places, to a greater or lesser extent. We are next door to delightful people like Erdogan and Orban, and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”.

Meanwhile Bannon is apparently in Europe, preaching his ideals.

What can we do about it?

Why does the opposition seem so weak, even though there is opposition.

It bothers me too. People think fascism is concentration camps and dictatorship, they don’t realise it starts with an us and them mentality and propaganda.

I honestly think the way to solve it is invest in education to enable people to think critically. Half the supporters of the far right genuinely believe conspiracy bollocks like “white genocide” and other nonsense while disregardarding scientific evidence.

It’s not a quick fix though so unsure how to combat them now.

Its the tolerance of intolerance paradox.

"by Karl Popper in 1945. The paradox states that if a society is tolerant without limit, their ability to be tolerant will eventually be seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Popper came to the seemingly paradoxical conclusion that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."

We value free speech so let people say what they want.
We value free association so let people associate with who they want.
We value freedom of ideas so let people have and communicate any idea they want.

Then, to be frank, liberal thinkers try to play nice. A value of facts over emotions. A value of debate and discussion over demagoguery.

We are told to listen to the views of others and try and debate them as opposed to just being as shouty and intolerant as they are.

Compare and contrast two demos in London over the weekend. Protest against Trump. Large but wont achieve anything. Civil and polite and no arrests.

Demo for Tommy Robinson. Full of hate and arrests and intimidation - see what they were doing to the muslim bus driver. Nothing but hate.

Look at the Brexit referendum. Full of lies over savings. Full of lies about any EU deal. Full of lies about Muslim Immigration.

The tolerant and liberal societies we know are dying. Because we are tolerant and liberal we are letting them.

If the concerns about immigration had been addressed earlier instead of just shouting "racist" then a lot of this could have been avoided.

"If the concerns about immigration had been addressed earlier instead of just shouting "racist" then a lot of this could have been avoided"

This is my point in a way. What concerns about immigration are not racist (this is a genuine question)?

If we look at jobs and wages, the facts says that impacts are nil to negligible at the fringes.

If we look at taking benefits/taking jobs - which is it?

If we look at housing and taking housing from deserving indigenous population - Daily Mail headline from 2012, which has now been amended, once read: “Revealed: How HALF of all social housing in England goes to people born abroad”. The actual figure at the time was 8.6%.

Immigrants work in the NHS but falling numbers due to perception of UKs anti-immigration means the recruitment crisis is getting worse. Same in farming/fruit picking. And very soon we are going to see headlines that families (mostly women) are going to have to wipe the arses of their infirm and vulnerable older relatives due to nobody coming here to do it from abroad anymore.

The racist fear of specific types of terrorism is interesting. How much of the terrorism that we have experienced is home grown? At the weekend who were the violent ones - anti-Trump supporters or pro-Tommy Robinson.

What concerns about immigration are real and need to be addressed?

As far as the UK is concerned I would say it's due to the total incompetence (financial and otherwise) of the opposition party which also happens to have an unelectable leader.

Would you be asking the same question if there had been a resurgence of the left? I'm guessing not.

As far as the UK is concerned I would say it's due to the total incompetence (financial and otherwise) of the opposition party which also happens to have an unelectable leader.

So when a bunch of far right thugs go to London, attack the police, abuse Muslims and give Nazi salutes whilst the media stay almost silent its Corbyns fault?

Would you be asking the same question if there had been a resurgence of the left? I'm guessing not.

Historically the left has fought against fascism not supported it either directly or via dog whistle politics. Appalling attempt to deflect here.

Well, one of the main drivers for the resurgent right is that it's a backlash against the last two decades of attempts to stifle legitimate debate about mass immigration by branding it as 'racist'. This is the predictable result of attempts to discmiss people's concens about the pace and scale of change negatively impacting their lives and communities.

Mass immigration has benefited the affluent, educated and well-connected by driving down wages at the bottom (and therefore the cost of goods and services), and creating a sense of 'wordliness' in many of our cities. Conversely, for those who are less well-connected and don't have the skills, social or material capital to take advantage of it, immigration has surpressed their wages and job prospects, overwhelmed their local services and pushed-up housing costs.

I may not agree with the nativists, but it's hard to dismiss their concerns; the issues they're complaining about are very real. Why is it considered acceptable for all other societies and cultures to want to protect and preserve their history and character, but not for Europeans to do the same? Simple answer, it's not.

The only way extremists like Salvini can be defeated is by addressing his supports' legitimate concerns.

I am not left-wing. This is not a momentum vs. the rest of the world thing. This is a real concern that in a lot of places in Europe, the precursors to fascism mark 2 seem to be in place and growing in strength.

Here in the UK the governing party has undoubtedly shifted to the right, held to ransom by a handful of egocentric but apparently unchallenged buffoons. Damaging buffoons.

"Would you be asking the same question if there had been a resurgence of the left? I'm guessing not."

If there was a resurgence on the left that hated other human beings, brought violence to the streets etc then yes I would. Accept the fact public demonstrations of right wing attitudes are built upon and utilize violence.

On Saturday there was a protest against the right in London. It was peaceful. On Sunday, the right protested. It was not peaceful.

Sorry Scottishdiem, but you're wrong. EU immigration is a net benefit to the UK, non-EU immigration is a much greater net cost to the public purse;

www.ft.com/content/c49043a8-6447-11e4-b219-00144feabdc0

It's perfectly reasonable for the residents of a country to raise concerns about this. Of course it's not racist!

Babycham almost everything you say is the result of UK government policy. Immigration in the UK didn't start 20 years ago its been going on for centuries, hence Britain is multi-cultural.

There was racism in the 50's against the Windrush generation and the same is happening today but aimed at eastern Europeans. The far right are always on hand to stir up hatred. That is not legitimate concerns it is outright racism.

Perhaps if Governments listened to the concerns of their electorates and stopped dismissing things which affect the plebs, some people wouldn't feel the need to vote for more right wing parties.

"immigration has surpressed their wages and job prospects, overwhelmed their local services and pushed-up housing costs."

Problem is, none a single word of that is true. I accept people have been told this, but actual proper research shows otherwise.

"Why is it considered acceptable for all other societies and cultures to want to protect and preserve their history and character, but not for Europeans to do the same?"

That is an interesting concept. No society is immutable from change. But European history does contain a lot of racism, oppression, colonialism, exploitation etc etc. But what aspects of our society are actually under threat? Does a Mosque represent a threat. Do more non-white people represent a threat. I am married to a black Zimbabwean. Will any children be a threat because they will not be white? Change is constant. What is it we want to defend that is actually under threat?

Interesting posts scottishdiem I think you’ve managed to articulate what I think, but struggle to put into words.

With regards to immigration I think what needs to be addressed is people’s perceptions. People who live in poor/depressed/cheap areas then seem to have a greater proportion of immigrants moving or housed near them. So regardless of what national figures prove they have concerns. There needs to be better health/education/housing/opportunities for all so that people don’t feel things are being taken from them.

I’m really not sure I’ve expressed that well.

It's perfectly reasonable for the residents of a country to raise concerns about this. Of course it's not racist!

There has been a huge drop off in european applications for Nursing and veg is now rotting in fields because EU workers don't want to come here. Lets hope the patriots who supported this are qualified to cover these shortfalls.

" It's perfectly reasonable for the residents of a country to raise concerns about this. Of course it's not racist!"

See I agree Babycham and am flummoxed as to why the left seem to think we shouldn't be raising those concerns?????

scottishdiem - Oh please! Every year there is a pro-Hezbollah march through central London (which Mayor Khan has not banned, even though there is plenty of "hate speech") - calling for the death of Jews (not Israelis, Jews!), as well as regular displays of violence by Antifa and other far-left thugs. Lets not pretend that racism, anti-Semitism and violence belongs only to the right.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/05/uk-migration-ucl-study_n_6105522.html

Here is a different link - cant get into the FT one.

Also, I am interested in this idea of a debate. A simple look at the costs shows people know the cost of things but not the value of them. What levels of immigration are desirable, what types of immigrant are desirable? Is it any?

As we develop as an aging society how will we make the changes to immigration needs? The white population is not breeding as fast as other ones. How will that be controlled to maintain the white supremacy of numbers? To prevent change?

as well as regular displays of violence by Antifa and other far-left thugs

Can you provide any evidence of this? 250,000 marched against Trump on Friday no arrests, Tommy Robinson march on saturday (much smaller) - arrests.

Also interesting that the Tory government and the media have been silent on the Loyalist bonfires in NI that burnt Irish and Palestinian flags and were anti catholic.

Not even one page in and what other posters have described has already been shown here. People have given their opinions and experiences only to be told to pipe down by others and that it is no concern and they are wrong. This is why it’s happening. The swinging of the pendulum was only to be expected.

I agree Babycham but alas, so many shout their battle cry of RACIST when it needs a discussion , a serious one .

Then there are lefties who are just as rampant , just as vocal, just as aggressive but try telling them that and they shoot you down .

We've confused freedom of speech, movement, belief and neutrality with allowing people to lie and get away with it. We've given people with no facts or truths a platform and then are shocked that people believe their crap.

Scottishdiem, yes those are real issues. Happily for the likes of you and me, we're among those who've benefited (and yes, my partner is and East African Asian Muslim; box also ticked, thenks!). That is not the case for those millions of the indigenous populaiton who have been left behind by demographic, social and economic change.

The non-organic population growth of the UK is between 5 and 10 million since 1991, and services and infrastructure have not kept pace with this.