To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?

[damaged]

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment, but they are obviously not the only ones. Here at home we have moved to the right, and our future is currently uncertain.

It seems to be a trend in a lot of places, to a greater or lesser extent. We are next door to delightful people like Erdogan and Orban, and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”.

Meanwhile Bannon is apparently in Europe, preaching his ideals.

What can we do about it?

Why does the opposition seem so weak, even though there is opposition.

Babycham1979 yes I do mean GDP. I’ve got GDPR on the brain after doing stuff related to it at work

I post on other threads. I am not a robot. I am interested in Brexit as it represents the greatest crisis the UK has faced since WW2.

My style is not robotic. I have been consistent in debunking Brexit mistruths and lies. I have been consistent in pointing out Brexit will be bad for ordinary people in the UK.

Given my suspicion of Brexit bots/shills on MN over the years peddling the usual sound bites about sovereignty/control/borders/unelected/EUSSR its a bit rich calling remainers robots.

What concerns about immigration are real and need to be addressed?

The Economist is ideologically predisposed to be very pro free movement of labour, but a few years ago they did an about-face and admitted that the impact of immigration on people could not be accurately judged using broad national statistics, because different classes of people were affected differently. I don't remember the detail, but broadly speaking the poorer you were the more likely you were to be adversely affected by immigration. (I think they also concluded that the gross national statistics had shown that the overall impact of immigration was neutral, so some people lost as a result of immigration, some were better off, but there was little overall effect on the country as a whole.)

Right wing is on the rise in Europe of course it’s always been there but to claim they haven’t had success

A third of voters voted for a far right (and further to the right than UKIP) in France last election

Have you not followed German politics Merkel’s campaign used language you would have never expected her to use five years ago

AFD who openly have connections to far right extremist groups are sitting comfortably in the Bundestag
Something many Germans thought they would never see

Why so many on the left want to claim it isn't an issue of course it it becuase when there is growing support (which it has been in recent years) it impacts political decisions foe those who are in power so they can stay in power. Look at France immigration policies in the last few years

@Firesuit was it this one from last year or was there something earlier as well?

www.economist.com/britain/2017/04/15/explaining-britains-immigration-paradox

"the places that have seen the greatest surges in migration have become poorer. In 2005-15 real wages in Migrantland [ten council areas which had the sharpest rise in immigrant population] fell by a tenth, much faster than the decline in the rest of Britain. On an “index of multiple deprivation”, a government measure that takes into account factors such as income, health and education, the area appears to have become relatively poorer over the past decade...

since 2010 Conservative-led governments have slashed the number of civil servants, in a bid to right the public finances. The axe has fallen hard on the administrative jobs that are prevalent in unglamorous parts of the country. Migrantland’s public-sector jobs have disappeared 50% faster than those in Britain as a whole. In the Forest of Dean they have dropped by over a third. Meanwhile, cuts to working-age benefits have sucked away spending power.

Even before austerity, it had long been the case that poor places had the most threadbare public services. Medical staff, for instance, prefer to live in prosperous areas."

Oh I see, there you go again ghost. I never knew the term shills until the brexit threads, looked it up and it seems to me the very people calling the pot...

because you don't agree with policies nationally and internationally its no excuse to support abhorrent far right groups/parties. The far right has a history of exploiting political instability, exploiting minorities and using or encouraging violence as well as dismantling democracy and the rule of law. It always ends in failure, but not before much damage is done.

The problem, the flaw with any stats quoted is that Blair did not expect millions to flock to the UK. There was no counting apparatus, no preparation.

So... What are the stats based on? How does anyone know how many people came, went stayed and went and stayed?

I'm struggling to understand on what solid truthful foundations any stats quoted are based on.
Imagine this small snap shot for example.

4 houses on my street (that I know of) revolving door of migrant workers. No tenancy agreements just, weekly or daily rent paid (, to slum landlord).

Multiple people sleeping all over property, many people on mattresses in each room. No one speaks hardly any English. One bathroom!

15 or more people in small terraced houses.. Some there months others A-day, a week.

A census comes in the post to us. We answer that census.

Does top cat or ghost think any of the people next door will answer a census 😂😂😂😂😂😂 and dutifully fill in, in English which they don't speak... Who is living in the house that day 😂😂😂😂.

People know on the the street those migrants are hard working.. Because they get thier cars cleaned at the car wash they work at.
But it's all cash in hand.
Are they paying into the economy?
What the neighbours also see is constant fighting, constant ambulance attendance, social devices involvement, council and eh health involvement ( no rubbish bin concept, mounds of rubbish, rats, anti social behaviour, urinating and defecating in gardens etc) and we read one problem family costs the UK at least 250 grand a year.

So what on earth are the immigrants next door costing and are they vital to the UK economy? Are they even noted to be here when no ones knows they are because they don't register anywhere.. And can't speak English.

Which also makes them vulnerable to rouge landlords. But they could never afford normal rents if it weren't for rogue landlords.

Another immigrant who has gone through hell and high water to live here, who does pay tax, who does contribute to society.. Who does a job we need.. Looks at the immigrants in that house and think why is this fair?

Is it fair??

was it this one from last year or was there something earlier as well?

I'm not sure, in my mind it was a few years ago, because that's when I used to subscribe, I haven't read it regularly in recent years. However I think I remember reading something after Brexit, probably the one you linked, so my mind may be playing tricks on me.

I do remember from my years as a subscriber that they can return to the same idea more than once.

Sorry, not being helpful.

(Sorry, I haven't read the link yet to see if it's familiar.)

OK, having looked at the link now, it is an article I've read before, but it doesn't contain some of the content I remember about the differential benefits and costs, so I think there must have been at least one previous one. (I suppose it's the kind of subject that you'd think would crop up nearly every year or two.)

Here’s an idea why not clamp down on rogue landlords rather than blaming the victims who wont all be EU citizens.

On a random immigration-related note, I am an immigrant, and in the long-term would like to see a borderless world where anyone can go anywhere. But in the short-term, one pro-immigration argument I regard as complete bollocks is the need for healthcare workers. The economically correct answer to any shortages is to increase pay until the shortage disappears. Importing people from elsewhere to solve shortages is a government-rigged answer to a government created problem of not paying the necessary wages in the government controlled healthcare sector. (And no I don't work in healthcare.)

Of course rogue landlords should be clammed down on

But not all will be victims who are living in their properties many are illegal so if it wasn’t for the rogue landlord where would they be. Many it’s a step to saving or sending money home

Many rogue landlords will be immigrants themselves the network of illegal immigrants will often have connections with legal immigrants and its expected in some communities you help out becuase you know someone they know

How do you buy property if you are an illegal immigrant? Fearmongering bollocks.

I assume you mean care workers rather than doctors?

Raising wages would have to improve staff retention and quality, but there would still be a limited number of people available to do the work and who would be suitable and interested. Unemployment isn't that high, and if some people left unskilled jobs to become carers, those companies may then want more staff. (Although if there was a recession because of Brexit, which seems likely, there would be less demand for workers in catering, non-essential retail and other discretionary spending areas.)

There will be some doctors around who've left the profession and remain qualified, and could be persuaded to return for better pay and conditions, but a lot more of those will have accepted jobs abroad and wouldn't be available to suddenly be drafted back into the NHS (after a bit of CPD). Though if they see it working, some might be tempted back after a few years.

For doctors and nurses several years would be needed to fund training for new ones, and they obviously won't be able to take consultant jobs straight out of university either. Some interim medical staff and senior posts that can't be filled by those already in the UK would need to recruit from elsewhere.

Who said anything about property being bought by illegal immigrants

Bordless world, you mean an empire? Since the way countries, continents organise themselves is all to do with managing resources (badly or well) I can't see how this will happen without wars or until the human race evolves into a higher intelligence( not in my life time).

@GhostofFrankGrimes

Your posts are robotic. Not in a bot sense but they are blindly robotic in tone and full of soundbites. You don’t respond or react to other users posts when they have put questions to you. You just post sentences that aren’t answers.

Ghostof you are aggressive to anyone who's views differ to your's. Surely posters should be allowed to give opinions without your biting their heads off.

Shills? How outrageously rude you are. In fact how dare you hurl insults with absolutely no evidence or even reasonable grounds. People like you scratch around for come backs because you have no real rebuttal and wind up with ignorant insults instead. Pathetic. I'm sure you think it's just a edgy insult you have picked up on a wanky whingers forum but it's actually offensive. Not being part of the professionally insulted bridgade I'll take that one on the chin, but you have lost any respect I could have had for you or your weak arguments and this my friends is why the left are losing, it always just boils down to insults rather than debate. Very sad.

Resentment of immigrants isn't just a UK phenomenon, although I expect I will get shouted down for this being anecdotal. I live to the the SE of Brussels; in the years I've been here, I've not claimed benefits, and my husband has supported me. Our healthcare was covered by HMG when we were posted here with HM Forces, and now by Dh's healthcare policy at work.

There is resentment here from some sectors of the local population about the amount of English speakers (both Brits and Americans) who live in and around this area. It's got nothing to do with money, as none of us take anything from the Belgian state, but it is about culture and very much about language. This is quite interesting: www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2011/04/20/7_why_do_the_flemishpeopleholdsostronglytothemonolingualisminthe-1-1007390/ It's not just economics that drives reactions - feelings of isolation within communities can be valid as well.

It's ok only 101,000 came from the EU in 2017 .
It seems like most of them came to my "city". not that they are anti-social or anything.

What is wrong with "the right" then @damaged?

" it always just boils down to insults rather than debate."

Yet Ghost was called a robotic here, implying that she was a shiil/bot not the other way around, she stated that there were shills here during the referendum debate and there were that is a fact.

The problem with this debate is that its almost inverse, the accusations that get attributed to the left are exactly what the right do.

BTW, the economist Migrantland article fails to acknowledge several factors.

1. It claims that they have seen "falling pay" stating: ". In 2005-15 real wages in Migrantland fell by a tenth, much faster than the decline in the rest of Britain. "

However a look at the data for areas like Boston and Redditch show that their average wage was always significantly lower than the regional and national average, due to the high number of category D and E jobs in the areas, and was prior to FOM from Eastern Europe.

Because there are so many of these lower paid jobs in the area, this then of course lowers the average wage figure, and lower the lower paid were much more impacted by the higher rates of inflation between 2010 -2015. This is not down to immigration.

It also uses the HOL study from 2008 to come up with its figure on the impact of immigration on wages. YET it doesn't use the most up to date figure based on research by the same person ( Dustman) or the BOE survey. The figure arrived at by the HOL report is based on data gathered between 1995 and 2004

Which of course doesn't cover the period of A8 immigration. The BOE and UCL studies do, and therefore are far more reliable pieces of data.