Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?

212 replies

damaged · 16/07/2018 07:57

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment, but they are obviously not the only ones. Here at home we have moved to the right, and our future is currently uncertain.

It seems to be a trend in a lot of places, to a greater or lesser extent. We are next door to delightful people like Erdogan and Orban, and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”.

Meanwhile Bannon is apparently in Europe, preaching his ideals.

What can we do about it?

Why does the opposition seem so weak, even though there is opposition.

OP posts:
PrincessPear · 16/07/2018 13:30

And are those things uniquely European? Christianity is middle eastern, philosophy has some roots in non western culture as well as western roots, and women had rights in Islam before they did in the West. I don’t think the weather is particularly similar either.

Beer may be one? But that’s a very small thing to base a culture on.

MrsAidanTurner · 16/07/2018 13:36

Not read thread but it's swing, the eu state simply doesn't appeal to millions of people. They have been forced to accept things they don't want too, Brussels doesn't listen so rather like voters turning to ukip, they turn to the party they think is listening.

The far left are just be afraid of as the far right.

Babycham1979 · 16/07/2018 13:36

*And are those things uniquely European? Christianity is middle eastern, philosophy has some roots in non western culture as well as western roots, and women had rights in Islam before they did in the West. I don’t think the weather is particularly similar either.

Beer may be one? But that’s a very small thing to base a culture on*

Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are entirely European and are inseperable from the Enlightenment, industrialisation and democracy. The Bible in teh vernacular? We're still wiating for Islam to catch up on that one. Equally women's (and individual's) rights

PrincessPear · 16/07/2018 13:38

Islam awarded women more rights historically than Christianity, until relatively recently. So I wouldn’t say women’s rights is European personally, or Christian.

Christianity as a religion didn’t originate in Europe so while certain sects may have done, I don’t see how Europe can claim credit.

Babycham1979 · 16/07/2018 13:49

I'm not suggesting Europe 'claim credit', but that it is a fundamental element of the development of a European identity and set of identities, and has led to (for example), the European welfare state, the Rights of Man, democracy, individualism, consumerism and capitalism.

Ruthlessrooster · 16/07/2018 13:50

And who are the native inhabitants? Do I count, with my foreign but white grandparents? Does my partner, with his foreign non white ones? Do my kids, born here but a bit brown? That’s very dangerous rhetoric

Problematically, some of the most trenchant opposition to immigration, particularly against perceived 'illegal' immigration, comes from migrants themselves. That opposition appears to be even more acute among those who have been settled for over five years, largely mirroring attitudes held by the host population. Plenty of evidence for this should you care to look.

rocketpocket · 16/07/2018 14:01

I feel that this is happening because essentially the left have stopped engaging and stopped arguing.

The best you seem to get out of the left now is "OMG you can't say that, shut up, you're a bigot" etc without ever really engaging, without wondering WHY people hold these views more to the right than their own.

I blame twitter to some extent. There's very little room for argument or reasoned debate in 240 characters or however many are allowed (I don't use Twitter). It's very easy to think that the "nice" view is the "right" view but this isn't always the case.

For example, with refugees and migration. When Merkel said that any refugee that reached Europe would be welcome to stay more were encouraged to come and as a result many more died on the crossing than would have died had this policy not been put in place.

It's nice and it's easy and your friends will think of you as "kind" if you simply say "refugees welcome" but its definitely not necessarily the right thing to do.

I believe there could easily be a right/left middle ground where immigration and refugees are concerned. Most people that want less immigration don't want it simply because they dislike foreign accents. They do have legitimate concerns about the cost of keeping these migrants. Where will they be housed and schooled? Will they be able to work and contribute? If they are refugees will they leave ice their country is safe again? Will many people be dying on the journey over? Is it not actually more cruel to invite millions of people into the country and then simply forget about them and let them fend for themselves? Would it be better to have fewer migrants/asylum seekers come who we can keep track of, who we can afford to look after properly once they arrive? Who we can afford to educate and integrate etc.

That's just one of the main differences between left and right where both sides are often incorrect.

The right is gaining popularity in this area because currently the left has been left in charge and they've handled things badly by anybodies standards. So average people are turning to right wing populists because they don't believe the left will do anything differently to what they've been doing up until now.

It's dangerous but I can feel that sense of having been let down by the left and I can understand why people are looking elsewhere. This is how extremists are allowed to slip through.

People will be reading this and thinking "yes but anyone who wants less immigration is simply a racist". Those people are the people that are causing this. It's absolutely not that black and white. Yes, some people are just racists but most are not. Proven by the fact that most brexiteers want people already in the country to be allowed to stay.

It's complex and debate needs to be had. Not simply writing people off. Compromises may have to be made. We need more free speech. Shutting down debate doesn't stop it happening, it just happens elsewhere where it goes unchallenged and it grows and can be exploited.

Haven't read the full thread but that's my take on it...

Babycham1979 · 16/07/2018 14:06

And who is the indigenous African? I'd suggest it's not the white Boer farmer or the Rhodesian landowner. They are, of course African legally, but they're not of the indigenous population.

rocketpocket · 16/07/2018 14:10

Also people often laugh and say "how can immigrants be taking jobs AND benefits? Lol. Which is it, thickos?"

Well, if an immigrant male comes to Britain and takes a minimum wage job and brings with him his pregnant wife and three children they will be taking out more than they're putting in as they'd be entitled to housing, benefits, NHS treatment, schooling. It is possible for immigrants to have jobs and still cost to the economy/in benefits.

gamerwidow · 16/07/2018 14:34

The net fiscal impact of immigration is about 1% of GDPR. They are don’t draining money from the coffers in huge amounts nor are they a goldmine. fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

I think people forget people in evil regimes are just people and not two headed monsters. We look around and think that couldn’t happen here we’re just normal people.

These are concentration camp guards at auswitcz they are normal people they probably just think they are doing there job rather than contributing to mass murder. People can justify anything to themselves given the proper motivation.

To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?
Babycham1979 · 16/07/2018 14:37

I think you mean DGP, Gamerwidow. GDPR is the European-wide data-protection legislation.

The 1% figure may be true, bt it's unhelpful to aggregate all 'immigration' into one homogenous whole. It's not. Different people contribute/take differeing amounts. It's entirely appropriate for nation states to manage who they choose to allow to visit and stay. A state's first duty is to its citizens, after all.

damaged · 16/07/2018 14:43

Fintan O'Toole wrote this on July 7tt in The Irish Times:

“To grasp what is going on in the world right now, we need to reflect on two things. One is that we are in a phase of trial runs. The other is that what is being trialled is fascism – a word that should be used carefully but not shirked when it is so clearly on the horizon. Forget “post-fascist” – what we are living with is pre-fascism.

It is easy to dismiss Donald Trump as an ignoramus, not least because he is. But he has an acute understanding of one thing: test marketing. He created himself in the gossip pages of the New York tabloids, where celebrity is manufactured by planting outrageous stories that you can later confirm or deny depending on how they go down. And he recreated himself in reality TV where the storylines can be adjusted according to the ratings. Put something out there, pull it back, adjust, go again.

Fascism doesn’t arise suddenly in an existing democracy. It is not easy to get people to give up their ideas of freedom and civility. You have to do trial runs that, if they are done well, serve two purposes. They get people used to something they may initially recoil from; and they allow you to refine and calibrate. This is what is happening now and we would be fools not to see it.
One of the basic tools of fascism is the rigging of elections – we’ve seen that trialled in the election of Trump, in the Brexit referendum and (less successfully) in the French presidential elections. Another is the generation of tribal identities, the division of society into mutually exclusive polarities.

Fascism does not need a majority – it typically comes to power with about forty percent support and then uses control and intimidation to consolidate that power. So it doesn’t matter if most people hate you, as long as your forty percent is fanatically committed. That’s been tested out too.

And fascism of course needs a propaganda machine so effective that it creates for its followers a universe of “alternative facts” impervious to unwanted realities. Again, the testing for this is very far advanced. But when you’ve done all this, there is a crucial next step, usually the trickiest of all. You have to undermine moral boundaries, inure people to the acceptance of acts of extreme cruelty. Like hounds, people have to be blooded. They have to be given the taste for savagery.

Fascism does this by building up the sense of threat from a despised out-group. This allows the members of that group to be dehumanised. Once that has been achieved, you can gradually up the ante, working through the stages from breaking windows to extermination.

People have to be given the taste for savagery. Fascism does this by building up the sense of threat from a despised out-group.

It is this next step that is being test-marketed now. It is being done in Italy by the far-right leader and minister for the interior Matteo Salvini. How would it go down if we turn away boatloads of refugees? Let’s do a screening of the rough-cut of registering all the Roma and see what buttons the audience will press. And it has been trialled by Trump: let’s see how my fans feel about crying babies in cages. I wonder how it will go down with Rupert Murdoch.

To see, as most commentary has done, the deliberate traumatisation of migrant children as a “mistake” by Trump is culpable naivety. It is a trial run – and the trial has been a huge success. Trump’s claim last week that immigrants “infest” the US is a test-marketing of whether his fans are ready for the next step-up in language, which is of course “vermin”.

And the generation of images of toddlers being dragged from their parents is a test of whether those words can be turned into sounds and pictures. It was always an experiment – it ended (but only in part) because the results were in.

And the results are quite satisfactory. There is good news on two fronts. First, Rupert Murdoch is happy with it – his Fox News mouthpieces outdid themselves in barbaric crassness: making animal noises at the mention of a Down syndrome child, describing crying children as actors. They went the whole swinish hog: even the brown babies are liars. Those sobs of anguish are typical of the manipulative behaviour of the strangers coming to infest us – should we not fear a race whose very infants can be so devious?

Second, the hardcore fans loved it: Fifty-eight percent of Republicans are in favour of this brutality. Trump’s overall approval ratings are up to 42.5 per cent.
This is greatly encouraging for the pre-fascist agenda. The blooding process has begun within the democratic world. The muscles that the propaganda machines need for defending the indefensible are being toned up. Millions and millions of Europeans and Americans are learning to think the unthinkable.

So what if those black people drown in the sea? So what if those brown toddlers are scarred for life? They have already, in their minds, crossed the boundaries of morality. They are, like Macbeth, “yet but young in deed”. But the tests will be refined, the results analysed, the methods perfected, the messages sharpened. And then the deeds can follow."

Let us protect our freedom with all our democratic power, and continue to be brave with everything we must face.”

This is exactly what I was trying to talk about, but 100 times more articulately expressed.

Blood chilling and frightening.

And our government welcomed Trump here Sad.

Salvini is equally frightening, but doesn’t yet have the same power.

Yet.

I don’t think this is about left and right in the sense that we normally understand it, but about normalised extremism.

OP posts:
Babycham1979 · 16/07/2018 14:53

Oops, GDP*

pennycarbonara · 16/07/2018 14:54

Has already been going on for several years in Australian detention centres for migrants and asylum seekers.

commonarewe · 16/07/2018 14:54

Border control does not equal fascism.

Write out 100 times on the back page of your copy of the Guardian.

damaged · 16/07/2018 14:58

Trump’s separation of children from their parents was more than “border control”. Ditto Salvini’s targeting of gypsies or willingness to leave boats of refugees in the ocean - notwithstanding the necessity to find a long term solution to the problem of people trafficking.

Nothing to do with “The Guardian”, which is just a comment designed to quash debate.

OP posts:
pennycarbonara · 16/07/2018 15:00

The fall in living standards that some people have experienced over their lifetimes, including reduced job opportunities mean that people can have an attitude of "well, I'm fucked anyway, why should I care about them?" (i.e. migrants) It contrasts with the solidarity that was sometimes seen in the late 19th to mid 20th century and ideas like international socialism - they'd never had that stuff then to feel hard done by for losing it, and felt more of a bond with people overseas who were also deprived, plus spread of money downwards as the middle class grew more prosperous, and a succession of improvements to rights made it feel like there was more hope. (Also behind the scenes lots of cheap resources to go round via exploitation of fossil fuels that are now starting to dwindle.)

damaged · 16/07/2018 15:00

Not to mention his endless talk of the wall that was going to keep out the “raping and thieving” Mexicans.

OP posts:
EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 16/07/2018 15:09

With regards to immigration I think what needs to be addressed is people’s perceptions. People who live in poor/depressed/cheap areas then seem to have a greater proportion of immigrants moving or housed near them. So regardless of what national figures prove they have concerns. There needs to be better health/education/housing/opportunities for all so that people don’t feel things are being taken from them

Totally agree. Truth is immigration doesn’t impact the mc as much. They are not having their resources put under so much pressure their areas where they live will not change but they can pop down to that part of town to experience the changes and cheap workers will impact their lives in a more positive way

And when people feel they they are being left behind or could potentially be left behind they are easy to manipulate

It’s very easy to day let’s have open door policies or immigration only enriches our society when the impact is only positive for yourself and your family

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 16/07/2018 15:10

Easy to say ...

Justanotherlurker · 16/07/2018 15:15

Salvini’s targeting of gypsies or willingness to leave boats of refugees in the ocean - notwithstanding the necessity to find a long term solution to the problem of people trafficking.

You cannot look at Italy in isolation when Germany and France are playing their part in this process. France has blocked ships docking in their ports whilst French NGO's are trying to drop immigrants off in Italy.

Germany is deporting thousands of failed asylum into Italy due to Schengen etc

This is why the right is growing, its far more nuanced than you, and the vocal left are trying to portray it.

topcat1980 · 16/07/2018 15:33

The way this thread has gone is indicative of why there is a swing to the right.

People have come and said "people are not listened to", and then others have come and offered researched based facts to show that in fact many of the concerns regarding immigration are baseless.

Then the same folk claiming that they are not being listened to claim that they are being shouted down for being racist.

What do you say to people whose concerns are not actually based on fact? To people in Sunderland - which has a falling population and very low immigration, when they talk about their services being stretched by immigration?

What do you say to people who cite Boston in Lincholnshire, having never been there, and quote partisan rubbish about "you don't here English accents there any more?".

What do you say to people who claim EU immigration drives down wages when all of the research into this says that it is ( in the words of the author of the biggest study ever done, the Bank of England report) infinitesimally small on the wages of the lowest paid ( a reduction in annual pay rises of about a penny an hour.)

What do you say to people who talk about EU immigrants claiming benefits when they are under represented in claiming benefits of all kinds?

What do you say to someone who blames immigration for increasing house prices, when the governments research shows immigration between 1991 and 2016 has caused house prices to increase by 21 percent (cumulative) but that house prices in all rose 320 percent over this time. So immigration has caused a year on year increase of 0.84 % per year, whilst other factors caused an 11.96% increase per year, yet they keep saying that immigration is the main problem?

What do you say to people who talk about getting rid of the muslims,. or conflate non-EU immigration with that from the EU. Or tell you that loads of the non-EU immigrants are actually ones with EU citizenship ( which then means that they are part of the group that are net contributors, low claimants on benefits etc)

What can you say to people who claim that immigrants get all of the social housing, and jump the queue, when immigrants are under represented in social housing AND there is no queue jumping.

What do you say to those who claim they are silenced when their views are on the front page of the 4 major newspapers for years, and they have radio shows, tv shows etc etc.

What you can do is manipulate their feelings in order to get an outcome,. which is exactly what the right do, they deal with feelings, not facts and make a large majority feel like an oppressed minority.

Then they can shape things for their own ends.

rocketpocket · 16/07/2018 15:44

To be fair topcat in this thread alone there's been a link to an article saying immigration is great and good for the economy, one neutral and one saying they take more than they put in... so I struggle with the stats side of it. It's hard to know what to believe. There's always something to back your bias.

Justanotherlurker · 16/07/2018 15:47

I applaud you for fitting so many Strawman into one post @topcat1980

Considering this post is about the rise of the right in Europe, getting on your high horse about our national newspapers and tv shows is irrelevant

Gaspodethetalkingdog · 16/07/2018 15:48

People who unhappy about the mass immigration initiated by Blair/Brown go to London and see the results. They don’t want their towns to look the same. Our precious countryside is being concreted over because of immigration -where are they all living - in holes in the ground.

Why does the economy ‘need’ people delivering pizzas on bicycles, so many takeaways selling crap unhealthy food, Uber with it’s non-English speaking drivers who have not been through the training and criminal checks of black cabs.

Swipe left for the next trending thread