To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?

[damaged]

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment, but they are obviously not the only ones. Here at home we have moved to the right, and our future is currently uncertain.

It seems to be a trend in a lot of places, to a greater or lesser extent. We are next door to delightful people like Erdogan and Orban, and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”.

Meanwhile Bannon is apparently in Europe, preaching his ideals.

What can we do about it?

Why does the opposition seem so weak, even though there is opposition.

thecrabbypatty I've been posting and contributing to Brexit threads for over 2 years. I don't like to toot my own horn but most of them have been detailed and considered. There have been shills/bots on MN during that time I'm pretty sure. I'll call out bullshit and disinformation when I see it. Sorry if you don't like it.

You do like to toot your own horn, quite clearly, loudly and preferably over the top of anyone who disagrees with you. Repeatedly quoting questionable statistics does not give them validity, and clearly you are not convincing anyone. I object to the word shill since it implies that anyone who holds a differing opinion to you could not have possibly come to their conclusion by themselves without being paid or colluding with the organisation you are disagreeing with. It suggests dishonesty and it's an insult of last resort usually used by someone on the losing end of an argument. It also has a particularly rancid wiff of antisemitism given that the phrase shill was particularly coined in American politics to suggest political favours were "bought". Disgusting, unfounded and untrue.

@topcat1980
Yet Ghost was called a robotic here, implying that she was a shiil/bot not the other way around

Stop lying. I was the one that called ghost’s posts robotic and in the next immediate sentence said “not in a bot sense”

Direct quote:

"You flood threads with endless long robotic style lectures."

That was direct to Ghost, that was your first post

Later you said:"Your posts are robotic. Not in a bot sense but they are blindly robotic in tone and full of soundbites. You don’t respond or react to other users posts when they have put questions to you. You just post sentences that aren’t answers."

Which whilst you said "not in a bot sense" implies that Ghost doesn't engage ( she does) and that she is a shill/bot despite your claim to the contrary.

Your posts are full of unprovable and improbable anecdote and now you also attack me for engaging in debate ? Oh wow, your skills are so good.

How can me actually saying “not in a bot sense” mean I was implying Ghost is a bot?

Your posts are full of unprovable and improbable anecdote and now you also attack me for engaging in debate ? Oh wow, your skills are so good.

I don’t even know what you’re talking about here.

*You flood threads with endless long robotic style lectures."

That was direct to Ghost, that was your first post

No it wasn’t

It was the first post that addressed ghost directly on this thread.

My problem is that some posters continually reguitate debunked slogans. That is robotic.

It was the first post that addressed ghost directly on this thread.

Wasn’t mine.

Yet you attacked me because I addressed this post, not yours initially?

Righhhht

The rise of the populist right across Europe is a direct result of uncontrolled mass immigration, particularly of people who ordinary Europeans perceive to be culturally very different from themselves.

Mainstream establishment politicians have ignored the concerns of ordinary people who they have patronised at best, and at worst accused of racism and bigotry.

What is now becoming clear is that if establishment politicians refuse to address these issues, people will vote for those who will. By ignoring the concerns of their voters, the establishment creates the climate which the real racists and bigots can exploit.

Nobody wants that.

Yet you attacked me because I addressed this post, not yours initially?

Righhhht

What the actual fuck are you talking about? 😂

And FYI, I’m replying, not ‘attacking’

"The rise of the populist right across Europe is a direct result of uncontrolled mass immigration."

Then how do you explain the Law and Justice party in Poland and Orban in Hungary, both countries with low immigration and both first elected before the 2015 refugee crisis?

How do you explain that the Dutch right wing were in the ascendency long before this, Pim Forrtuyn was a far right populist.

The far right were in coalition in Austria in the mid 2000s and Italy at the same time.

Why is this?

The rise of populism/far right has been encouraged by some establishment MP's.

We are at this point because of "othering", fear of something different and the ease in which minority groups can be used as scapegoats for more complex issues

Both Ghost and Topcat are scrabbling around to explain what is to them totally baffling. They keep scouring the Internet to try and explain points they cannot articulate themselves. All the while completely adamant that they will not accept the simple truth other posters have expressed. And when they still can't quite wrangle the point they want to make, the facts however hard they ram cannot fit their narrative they get into childish "he said / she said" rubbish.... Or just start throwing insults. If you two are both representative of "the left" let's hope you are self appointed. You do a disservice to the points you try to make with you with you shouting down, rude and bolshy attitude.

I think the populism has actually been encouraged by the establishment.

It means that the "others" take the blame for lower living standards, poorer working conditions etc brought on by the world financial crash.

Thecrabbypatty,

At no point have I ever scrabbled around.

I note that you don't actually rebut any of the points made but launch an attack on myself and ghost.

Ad Hom fail

Always a scapegoat. Jews in the 1930's. Muslims/foreigners today. Welded together by jingoism and xenophobia. Hate and bigotry is now so normalised people either do not recognise it or do not care that it exists as it conveniently feeds their prejudices.

Hate and bigotry is so normalised now

As opposed to when 1930’s Germany.

1970’s UK

There are areas in many parts of Europe that have changed drastically in recent times due to mass immigration. Now these changes happen in the poorer areas often impacting local services as they struggle to deal with a sudden growth in population and changes needs of population

This causes resentment that often is already there as let’s be honest the poorest in society are never the first to benefit from economic growth and investment . You can pull up all the stats you like as politicians, left liberals so often do but have ignored what people are saying “I have to wait longer to see a GP now, we are being undercut with wages, schools are over subscribed ” and so on

But the economy was doing well overall certainly helped with being able to keep the lower wages wages low so there was no need to listen to them. This turned to more resentment but someone is always listening and engaging it was putnon plate for the likes of Farage

No one is denying that there hasn’t always been a far right wing element in politics in Central Europe in particular

If immigration was managed better, the share of how it impacts people’s lives was shared equally there wouldn’t be such a forceful rise in right wing populist parties. It’s not complex and is quite easy to understand history has shown is how politics plays out

No one is denying there isn’t racism or bigotry but ignoring people’s concerns over and over again was a grave mistake

"but ignoring people’s concerns over and over again was a grave mistake"

This needs to be addressed again.

Which parts of europe have been changed by "mass" immigration?

Not Poland, not Hungary, not France and certainly not the UK and definately not the vast majority of areas voting leave.

Italy and Greece have been badly effected by the refugee crisis.

Immigration and the refugee crisis are two separate issues and should not be conflated.

What are the issues that can be addressed? What do people want done about them?

Suggest something that can be tangibly changed and some actual negative effects and people can do something about it.

Raise issues that are irrational and not factually based then nothing can be done about them.

Low pay was an issue long before the EU existed. How under capitalism/neo liberalism can you tackle inequality/low pay? Its part and parcel of capitalism. Somebody wins somebody loses. Brexit won't change this mindset. People will be disappointed.

Not France

Really have you been to the outskirts of Paris

What difference does it make to people if it’s immigration or refugees it’s still impacting their lives far more than the nicer areas in towns and cities

You know where we also place homeless shelters, mh hostels, drug rehab hostels, supported accommodation hostels

Never claimed us leaving the EU will make life better but I certainly understand why many took that chance too (EU referendum wasn’t just about immigration but it wasn’t a driving force that Remain choose to ignore) many years of being let down by MP’s who only have their self interest at heart

And yes low pay had long been an issue

But standards of living greatly improved for many then it became stagnant for far too many

It was a driving force ...

have you been to the outskirts of Paris

Populated by French citizens of mainly North African descent - a legacy of French colonialism.

As French as a white French person however.