To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?

[damaged]

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment, but they are obviously not the only ones. Here at home we have moved to the right, and our future is currently uncertain.

It seems to be a trend in a lot of places, to a greater or lesser extent. We are next door to delightful people like Erdogan and Orban, and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”.

Meanwhile Bannon is apparently in Europe, preaching his ideals.

What can we do about it?

Why does the opposition seem so weak, even though there is opposition.

Here's a question for the remainers. How did you think the immigration issue was going to be resolved?

Here's a question for the remainers. How did you think the immigration issue was going to be resolved?

What exactly needs to be resolved, because as someone said, the research doesn’t really support the apparent problems with immigration?

My grandparents were (white) immigrants. My partner’s grandparents are (non white) immigrants. Why anyone would have a problem with either, and by extension, us, is often purely ignorant.

PrincessPear The level of immigration perhaps? Having sufficient homes and infrastructure (Doctors and school places for instance) so you don't have houses overfilled with people. Being able to track accurately who comes in and out, and having measures in place to ensure that they leave.

I don't see what is wrong with an immigration policy which does this, like Australia, NZ and Canada. If you don't fir the criteria for immigration, you can't go. Seems to work for them.

Having sufficient homes and infrastructure (Doctors and school places for instance) so you don't have houses overfilled with people. Being able to track accurately who comes in and out, and having measures in place to ensure that they leave.

Infrastructure is an issue but it’s nt down to immigration, it’s down to massive government cuts and privatisation. The issue is the lack of investment. Plus, immigrants can’t possibly be taking all the jobs AND using all the benefits...

I don’t see why anyone should be limited to where they were born. No one chooses it. Providing you’re not here committing crime, I have no issue with immigration.

Because they are intent on virtual signaling and identity politics looks and the trans issue and labour also they are seemly unable to call out rasicts when they have clear issues with Jews they fail to address oh and did I forget to mention them holding the Woking class in contempt swating away their issues as rasicts at very turn when often the trustafrain don’t have to live with the down sides to immigration

Oh and often being hypocritical let’s not get into lady thonebury her lot who all send their kids to private and grammers while telling the working classes why their so awful

Denying that there is an issue with immigration is what got us into this mess in the first place. But yeah, you keep denying it instead of addressing it. See where that gets you.

Denying that there is an issue with immigration is what got us into this mess in the first place. But yeah, you keep denying it instead of addressing it. See where that gets you.

What problem then? Go on. Tell us. I’m interested to see a non racist concern that can be attributed solely to immigration and is supported by solid evidence.

Here's a question for the remainers. How did you think the immigration issue was going to be resolved?

It was already evident in 2016 that there was growing anti-immigration sentiment in Europe. I talked about this at the time, when hoping to persuade a few people to vote for remain, and estimated that within the next few years EU stances would change on some of these things.
Also, some other EU countries have policies whereby people moving to the country from within the EU and staying for more than 3 months have to have a job or prove they have enough money to support themselves. The UK could always have implemented something like that but didn't.

PrincessPear

Having sufficient homes and infrastructure (Doctors and school places for instance) so you don't have houses overfilled with people. Being able to track accurately who comes in and out, and having measures in place to ensure that they leave.

Infrastructure is an issue but it’s nt down to immigration, it’s down to massive government cuts and privatisation. The issue is the lack of investment. Plus, immigrants can’t possibly be taking all the jobs AND using all the benefits...

I don’t see why anyone should be limited to where they were born. No one chooses it. Providing you’re not here committing crime, I have no issue with immigration.

if your having a party you need to make sure you catered for the amount you have invited
Unless you are planning to infnatly exapand our inferscturctor then their needs to be a limit their is no forward planning

And often middle class types don’t give a shit because when hospitals are full they go private
And when schools are full they go private and when large amounts of immigrants show up they fuck off to the Home Counties siting it’s to dangerous now for their children
But they can afford to
When somthing doesn’t effect you it’s often a fan idea if you lived round here in my estate you may not thing 500 people off a boat Turing up it suck a good thing especially when we already have a 5 year wait for housing

And often middle class types don’t give a shit because when hospitals are full they go private
And when schools are full they go private and when large amounts of immigrants show up they fuck off to the Home Counties siting it’s to dangerous now for their children
But they can afford to
When somthing doesn’t effect you it’s often a fan idea if you lived round here in my estate you may not thing 500 people off a boat Turing up it suck a good thing especially when we already have a 5 year wait for housing

I’m a young unmarried mother from a multicultural city in a relationship with a non white person. I don’t think I’m the middle class Home Counties type. I can barely afford childcare, let alone private education. I don’t blame random brown folks for the govt lack of investment though.

Here's a question for the remainers. How did you think the immigration issue was going to be resolved?

But that's irrelevent. Non-EU immigration has always outstripped that from the EU, yet the Government did nothing about it. And that's despie the fact that non-EU immigrants are a net disadvantage to the economy.

Furthermore, within the rules of the EU, we've always had the right to restrict access to benefits and freedom of movement (as Belgium already does). Brexit was sold on a tissue of lies and fantasies and is a complete red-herring when it comes to the responsible management of migration.

Funnily enough it tends to be Edith from an all white village who’s never met an “ethnic person” in her life who whinges and votes UKIP.

PrincessPear

Housing is a good issue and I lectures please on race I am black and unlike many don’t have white priavllage and live it every day

If people come over they should have the right work but if your unable to house and support your self financially then you are a net drain every person the council houses that’s not from here means a British born black white or Asian can not be housed
If you cannot support yourself in a really way then the best thing is to stay in the country your famiker with your support nework

What exactly needs to be resolved, because as someone said, the research doesn’t really support the apparent problems with immigration?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-wholesale-eu-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british

I'm a remainer, and as such a fully paid up member of NeoLiberalism, something that many of the remainers fail to grasp, after all being a remain is essentially for the status quo of big business.

One of the reasons of the rise of the right across Europe etc is the conflation around immigration and controlled immigration, people where shouted down for being racist hence why it's a stereotypical argument that is used in Italy/France/Germany etc etc.

It doesn't help when you get people like the OP using statements like this and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”. without any understanding whatsoever.

There is a lot of Reaction Formation being played out on both sides, hence why you have some people on this thread who think this is their civil rights movement taking on fascism, the fact that facism is getting watered down so much is neither here nor there.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation

As for the person linking the Tolerance of Intolerance paradox, considering that paradox is used a lot by the Alt-right (another ever changing definition) usually in context of muslim immigration I would like to hear how they defend that paradox then.

The reason why the rise of the extreme Right and Left is taking route is because Neoliberalism has failed in some areas of the population.

If people come over they should have the right work but if your unable to house and support your self financially then you are a net drain every person the council houses that’s not from here means a British born black white or Asian can not be housed
If you cannot support yourself in a really way then the best thing is to stay in the country your famiker with your support nework

There is not one piece of evidence that immigrants are claiming benefits at a particularly high rate.

Just

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

The resurgence of the Far-right I assume you meant to say?

There is not one piece of evidence that immigrants are claiming benefits at a particularly high rate

What rubbish. Look at the link I've already posted (again, below, incase you missed it). Non-EU immigration is a massive net disbenefit (ie, they cost us more than they contribute). But why let facts get in the way of prejudice, eh?

www.ft.com/content/c49043a8-6447-11e4-b219-00144feabdc0

I wouldn't say the Tories have shifted to the right recently...

What have I misunderstood - as far as I can see, Trump is on our shores sowing further division, and providing grist for the mill for the likes of Salvini et al.

He was apparently talking about EU trade with the US, but his statement was deliberately inflammatory and will be taken out of context.

@Babycham1979, both your FT articles are subscriber only. Can you paste the most relevant paragraphs?

Your article is only viewable if I pay for it. As I stated earlier, as I’m not a middle class Home Counties type, I probably won’t be paying to read it.

However here’s a quote from an article on a UCL study on immigration.

“Recent immigrants have made a net contribution of £20 billion to the UK over the last ten years, according to a UCL study, and foreigners are barred from several types of benefits without having permanent residency in the UK, unlike those on work visas, students and asylum seekers don't qualify.”

IMO it’s because the left has more or less abandoned the white working classes and become a vehicle of the chatterati so they are left with nowhere to turn but the right.

A good example of this is the recent news about white working class children being the lowest achieving group educationally. The left we’re falling over themselves to blame it on the children and their parents with tales of working class white children being sent to school in nappies barely able to speak and not able to use cutlery because their parents are uninterested in them and ignore them. You couldn’t make those accusations about any other group but the white working classes are constantly demonised by the very party who claim to represent their interests

I live in a working class northern area, and aside from public sector workers I know nobody who is enthusiastic about Corbyn because they know his policies would probably mean their job disappearing plus even more migrants to compete against for the scraps that were left.

On the flip side I went to a party in London this weekend where most of the attendees were home owners with family incomes north of £100k who were very enthusiastic Corbynites and self proclaimed socialists.

The left seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that deriding, mocking and stigmatising working class voters that they clearly view as scum is a vote winner. It’s not.

People in Leave-voting areas that were traditionally Labour (going to assume here that there's no point trying with Eurosceptic shire Tories) aren't experiencing things on an aggregate national level though. They have seen things like call centre jobs offshored to India, builders from EU countries undercutting their rates etc.

And in statistical terms Milankovic's famous 'elephant graph' taking into account gloablisation does a much better job of explaining what these people are responding to www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37542494

Given that there are a lot of people who feel that their lived experience or that of their acquaintances is one where globalisation / immigration is a problem for them, and sections of the press are anti-immigration, there is realistically not much scope to change people's minds: some of the public would find it patronising at best, and you can't actually ban the Mail and the Express, much as some people on the left would like to. (And in any case the place would only be filled by online sources not subject to the regulation of traditional press.) Left wing parties have more hope of taking the wind out of their sails by changing their immigration policies but staying left on other things. Here there are a lot of people who want a change from the Tories anyway but for a lot of traditional Labour voters immigration (and by implication London-centric cosmopolitanism) seems to be a sticking point.

Alot of leave voting areas had low immigration so the idea of wages being undercut by foreign workers is bollocks.

Globalisation does create problems - outsourcing etc but how is Brexit going to stop that when one of the campaign slogans was "global Britain?"