To ask why opposition seems so powerless against the resurgence of the right on our continent?

[damaged]

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment, but they are obviously not the only ones. Here at home we have moved to the right, and our future is currently uncertain.

It seems to be a trend in a lot of places, to a greater or lesser extent. We are next door to delightful people like Erdogan and Orban, and Trump refers to the EU as “foe”.

Meanwhile Bannon is apparently in Europe, preaching his ideals.

What can we do about it?

Why does the opposition seem so weak, even though there is opposition.

The problem with the one that says they take out more, is that it doesn't mention the fact that this is all immigration and includes people who have been here for decades and retired here.

It also doesn't note that the vast majority of the UK born population from non immigrant backgrounds take out more too.

The other issue is a lack of critical thinking, if UCL, the LSE and many others agree on a topic, and research from Immigration Watch disagrees, then you can pretty easily decide which data is most likely to be accurate.

Unless of course you are after confirming your bias.

"People who unhappy about the mass immigration initiated by Blair/Brown go to London and see the results"

Is this the London that has always been a melting pot?

Where more than 20% of the population was an ethnic minority in 1991? Where the white population was 69.7% in 2011 census?

Where the British born still make up 76% of the population?

Yet you claim not to be racist?

Considering this post is about the rise of the right in Europe, getting on your high horse about our national newspapers and tv shows is irrelevant

Actually compliant media is a key feature of authoritarianism. So are headlines by the Daily Mail reflecting the beliefs of their readership about immigration or do they feed the fake news and drive people to the right?

Probably a mix of both but in both parts of that mix, the truth dies.

I think the Mail does both, it panders to the prejudices of its readership, but also whips up rage and fear with its use of emotive language.

That drives people to the dark side.

The majority of voters are fed up with left wing policies. They are not seeing any benefits of the changes, only worsening conditions. The Italians and Greeks are PISSED OFF. The great promise and financial free for all of the EU has proved unsustainable and so they are worse off than before. Add that to increased pressure on wages, jobs and housing from mass migration and its like throwing petrol onto the bonfire. If these countries were not creaking at the seams due to the financial irresponsibility of the government I'm sure there would be higher tolerance of migration. However what little some people have they are not willing to divvy up further. In times of plenty you can share easier than in times of hardship. The government of a country has a duty to its citizens as a priority, then to new arrivals and this is not perceived as happening. People want change, Trump and the other hard right are the only ones not only promising it but also delivering at the moment. This is why they are becoming increasingly popular while the left continue to look the opposite direction of the cannon ball rolling down the hill towards them.

Border control does not equal fascism

As two words, I agree they do not equal fascism.

The policies that dictate the level of control of the border can be. Usually the first step towards an authoritarian/fascist state.

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

Immigrants and Muslims.

2. Create a gulag

Immigration detention centres. See recent Windrush beneficiaries of this.

3. Develop a thug caste

Tommy Robinson supporters. Britain First. etc.

4. Set up an internal surveillance system

Banks and even landlords doing immigration checks to access services and accommodation. Employers been doing this far ages as well.

5. Harass citizens' groups

You see the abuse women get online when they seek a progressive society?

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release

Again Windrush. Will happen to EU citizens as the Home Office is inept.

7. Target key individuals

To be fair I think this one will be hard for a government in the UK to achieve. But....

8. Control the press

Every person who disagrees with Brexit, immigration etc is a target. See Gina Miller. See Supreme Court attacks. etc.

9. Dissent equals treason

The Prime Minister has been accused of treason for her Breixt plan. Remainers are treasonous.

10. Suspend the rule of law

UK government adherence to immigration laws is lax at best. They lose so many cases in court due to disregard for the law. See Windrush again.

Thecrabbypatty

What change has Trump brought in for the little people in the US? All his actions are for the rich and those with good health plans and live in pollution free areas.

Lower tax rates for working citizens. They take home more of their pay under Trump.

"The majority of voters are fed up with left wing policies"

Which ones, be specific.

"The Italians and Greeks are PISSED OFF"

Because they are baring the brunt of the refugee crisis and other countries like the UK are not supporting them.

"The great promise and financial free for all of the EU has proved unsustainable and so they are worse off than before."

This was never a promise., unfactual hyperbole.

." Add that to increased pressure on wages, jobs and housing from mass migration and its like throwing petrol onto the bonfire"

Every country in the EU bar Greece has rising real wages and has done for a few years, like the UK the low wage growth has been due to the fall out from the financial crash, not the EU or immigration.

"Trump and the other hard right are the only ones not only promising it but also delivering at the moment"

They haven't delivered anything. Trump is a joke of a President whom despite controlling the house and senate has passed one, just one, bill in 18 months in charge.

The right haven't even managed much.

Brexit is a clusterfuck which no one who campaigned for it is willing to take ownership. Just lob grenades from the sidelines.

The right failed in France. They didn't win in Holland, they are in coalition in Italy but have been so in many governments previously (Berlusconi and the Fascists, remmeber that coalition?)

The hysteria about Austria, Poland and Hungary is just that, hysteria. All of these parties have been in government prior to the refugee crisis of 2016.

Hmmm, but the right are on the rise?

"Lower tax rates for working citizens. They take home more of their pay under Trump."

No, its heavily favoured for the rich, most average earners have seen little improvement in their take home pay, and many have lost tax exemptions.

Italy and Salvini being a prime example at the moment

As an Italian voter I can tell you why Salvini is in power, and has almost doubled his popularity since the march elections.

The Italian left who were in power from 2011 to 2018. They pushed even the most extreme left wingers to protest vote by voting Salvini and the 5 stelle.

Some Trump tax analysis:

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/26/17044440/gop-tax-cut-tax-reform-law-chart-regressive-rich-poor-graph

Which ones, be specific - the rise in the election of hard right parties, the topic the OP is addressed as.

This was never a promise - OK so the EU was based on a promise to make things worse for the countries involved? Why the hell would they sign up to that?

UK the low wage growth has been due to the fall out from the financial crash, not the EU or immigration - how long are these countries going to keep hearing this? They want something done to improve the situation, not keep harking back to an event ten years ago. Also who was responsible for the crash?

They haven't delivered anything - the right have forced governments to address the migration crisis. Look at what was happening in Germany to Merkel last week.

If the right are not on the rise where did this original post come from discussing "the rise of the right on the continent".

Bloody hell, Topcat1980, you have managed to conflate so many issues into one post, your sophistry really is a work of art. At one point, you refer to EU citizens, then non-EU, then all immigrants, and the non-wites without stopping for breath. A case study in how to mislead people with bullshit if ever there was one!

Sadly, I suspect you're smart enough to know exactly what you're doing. That is disengenuous, to say the least. Incidentally, white Britons became a minority in London in 2010. You wouldn't know that from reading your highly selective (mis)representation of statistics.

Also you can whinge about Brexit as much as you like but it was a a reflection of the democratic will of the people. If you don't like democracy then move to North Korea. Or even a country that claims to democratic but actually oppresses its citizens, actively suppressing free speech, having state run media and actively persecuting minorities through state approved systems like Russia.

"Incidentally, white Britons became a minority in London in 2010. You wouldn't know that from reading your highly selective (mis)representation of statistics."

But I didn't say white Britons because I wanted to point out that Immigration of non UK citizens hadn't really increased that much since 1991 in terms of %population .

So are black or Asian Britons not really British?

The fact is that the British born population are still the majority in London.

In haven't manipulated the statistics at all

"Also you can whinge about Brexit as much as you like but it was a a reflection of the democratic will of the people. If you don't like democracy then move to North Korea. "

What a fucking hoot.

I will whinge about Brexit, because you know why? Democracy.

So you do like democracy!!!!!! Hurrah!!!

the will of the people when influenced by Russian-funded advertising of a sort and extent which hadn't been implicated in other UK national votes...

"This was never a promise - OK so the EU was based on a promise to make things worse for the countries involved?"

Yes but the hyperbolic langauge of a money free for all was never a promise. Broadly living standards across the EU are the highest in the world. They make up 15 of the top 30 countries to live in and all 27 are within the top 40.

\3how long are these countries going to keep hearing this? They want something done to improve the situation, not keep harking back to an event ten years ago. Also who was responsible for the crash? "

Leaving the EU is not going to help wage growth or employment.

Who was responsible for the crash? The financial industry, mainly in the USA.

"If the right are not on the rise where did this original post come from discussing "the rise of the right on the continent".

The right have always been there The Northern League was part of Berlusconi's right wing government from 2008 till 2011. The right wing in Austria were in power in the early 2000s, the law and justice party were in power in Poland in 2005-2007.

It isn't on the rise, it has always been there, but people like to confirm their hias

Of course I like democracy, but most leave voters seem to think it ended on June 23rd 2016.

Of course we like democracy. The original question was about the rightward shift in voter choices. My answers have been about how false information has been used and understood by voters.

I look at this from slightly different angle:

It's inherent complexity, people's failure to accept their own inability to grasp issues that go far beyond most folks' - and in some cases experts' on the subject - ability to grasp and make informed decisions about many of the issues we're actually facing in a highly interdependent, technology driven world.

Hence the desire for answers that Joe Bloggs can relate to (and, by extension, understand). Hence, populism.

I don't think that this is merely a phenomenon of the right at all. It's there with leftist populists such as Momentum - less noticeable, perhaps, because left-wing populism hasn't really been that much of thing since the early-to-mid 20th century. At least not in Western Europe.

I'm a leftist. I'm also as deeply uncomfortable with left-wing populism as I am with it's right-wing equivalent. Nothing good comes from dumbing down the issues to a level that anyone may be able to grasp but that no longer bears any resemblance at all to the actual question.

And, no, I don't know the answer. Quite obviously, technocratic rule is deeply anti-democratic and undesirable. Equally obviously, responses such as anarcho-primitivism are utterly hare-brained.

I agree that the reason the right and left populists have grown in popularity since the world financial crisis is that they offer simple solutions to complex problems.

Top cat and ghost, do you post on the other threads. You both seem to dominate brexit threads as others have noticed. But I don't see you posting elsewhere. You flood threads with endless long robotic style lectures.
I have read the statics thing a million times. There was a poster called small fox who eventually got banned for it.