Aibu or is school, regarding discipline?

[Imustbemad00]

Would like any information anyone can give me regarding secondary schools and discipline procedures.
My child’s secondary school is strict. I knew it was strict, partly why I chose it. However, in reality, it is causing so many problems. My child has changed so much since starting there, unhappy, suffering with mental health and has developed a bad attitude problem and I will admit is being quite naughty at school and at home. Im worried.

This brings me on to the school rules and discipline. The school penalises children for looking out of a window, or anything viewed as a drop in concentration or messing around. Even dropping a pen. They have to move through the corridors in silence and not make eye contact with anyone and can’t even mess about at break time. They have to sit and chat and be sensible. It’s like they can not have personalities.

The sanctions for bad behaviour are extreme. My child has spent a lot of time in isolation, which means out of lessons. Not learning. Not talking to another person all day. Not great for a child already struggling with mental health.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm.

I try to work with them as I know my child’s behaviour is the cause of punishments, but honestly feel they are way over the top and their approach is making things worse. They say that those are their policies and that is that.

I’m thinking of moving schools but worry my child’s behaviour could worsen if boundriers were relaxed. But equally they could flourish if not so unhappy and stressed.

So Aibu to think the schools policies are over the top? Is it normal?

@nobodysbabynow

I have noticed that whenever I see a comment on social media which is critical of Michaela, someone who has visited and talked to the wonderfully happy pupils and seen their amazing work will quickly arrive on the thread or comments - I've never seen this with any other school, isn't it odd?

Yes, I've thought this too. The cult of Michaela def has paid trolls I suspect.

Stop bickering in here and calling posters names simply because they call you out on your appalling parenting.

Get that poor child out of that shithole school /prison and try to mend the fractured relationship you have with him.

If you don’t he will end up despising you. You know that though. If you don’t remove him then you’re deliberately being cruel to him. Normal parents can see this is not right.

I work in a school and moved my daughter FROM a school like this.

We have an “interseting” cohort and behaviour points are issued for behaviour only. For example, 30 would be considered high.

Before I moved my daughter from her previous school she was on 60+ points - almost all non-behaviour related (lack of equipment etc). She has mental health issues and despite my constant trying she will mislay things.

Sadly the damage is already done. Her confidence is shattered. Currently working with a number of agencies but making very little progress.

That is what I am saying. My belief is that the OP wants validation that her son's behaviour will meet with a different response elsewhere and because, in her heart of hearts, she knows it won't, she is being evasive

That’s not true. Ds2 narrowly missed out on a detention for having socks that were ‘the wrong shade of grey’ (until then I had no idea there was even a rule beyond ‘black or grey’ ). A friends son at the same school was given a detention for taking his blazer off in a heatwave.

At ds3’s School he can wear any socks he likes. If he did violate the dress code in some terrible way (which would be hard as the uniform is sensible & gives a wide choice) he might be given (after a warning and request to change) a spare uniform to wear for the day. He certainly would not be given a detention for taking his jacket off when he was hot. They don’t really do detentions at his school though. They have Saturday morning school if you have missed school or are behind on work and they have a sort of isolation room although they call it a student support centre - the idea being it’s not just used for punishment but also people who need additional support for whatever reason.

So now I’m an appealing parent who has a fractured relationship with my child. Well thanks for taking time out of your day to give that very helpful advice. I really value the opinions of internet trolls so will definitely do as you tell me.

they have a sort of isolation room although they call it a student support centre - the idea being it’s not just used for punishment but also people who need additional support for whatever reason.
In most schools they are 2 separate things so a school claiming to combe them together with a sort of isolation room seems to muddy the waters in my opinion.

Isolation is part of behaviour sanctions usually.
A support base is a fairly standard part of most secondary schools offering support.

The existence of both of those is fairly common. Neither are particularly revolutionary.

Blending the 2 together is unhelpful in my opinion. There's the sanction and the support. When isolation and time in the support base become one ajd the same you get a ridiculous situation where some students turn up to a lesson, say they can't be arsed and would rather go to the support base so kick off in order to go to the support base (usually where they know they'll be met by a member of staff who'll not support their behaviour but will let them sit on the computers for an hour and not do the work they are meant to)

My heart sinks when Pengggwn comes up in an education thread. Their lack of empathy is startling.

As I said way back in the thread @MaisyPops ds3’s shool is a free school with a progressive philosophy best explained by this film www.mltsfilm.org (it’s not exactly the same as obviously they’re tied by GCSE’s etc , but the underlying philosophy is). They do a lot of things very differently there (eg call teachers by their first names, allow any hair colour - even purple, no bells, kids can work in any way they are comfortable, including on the floor if appropriate to the lesson, few classrooms) - so their discipline policy is quite different to the bootcamp schools (& ds2’s grammar, which isn’t anywhere near as bootcamp as the OP’s). So within the philosophy it makes sense.

Ofsted and dept for education seem to love the school btw - so they don’t need to be bootcamp to get brownie points. They don’t seem to have huge discipline problems btw, bullying levels are low (told to me by many different people who have been in the school) & the kids seems happy and engaged. They put a lot of emphasis on relationships. It’s not a perfect school by any means, but they (IMO) do some incredible work there in quite a challenging area. It certainly suits anxious Ds3 who takes school very seriously more than ds2’s grammar would have - his confidence has soared, it would have gone the other way at the grammar. A bootcamp of the type described by OP would have killed him (honestly think we’d be fighting for significant CAMHS input).

I haven’t seen any problems mixing support spaces & ‘punishment’. Eg Ds3 had to go to Saturday school because illness had affected his attendance levels (if it goes below s certain level you are ‘encouraged’ to attend Saturday school. He was there with people who had probably bunked off. The school’s approach is that it’s about catching up on missed time - whatever the reason. I suppose by removing the punishment element of that you remove one battle.

As I said earlier I work with extreme challenging behaviours (including forensic occasionally) & I much prefer ds3’s school’s approach to discipline.

I missed that devilish. That makes more sense.

In a typical mainstream, mixing support zone and isolation works terribly in my experience.

Different school philosophies work for different children. Personally, I think the OP's school is too far that way.

My daughter's school has a supervised study room, she goes there sometimes for support with extra study, there will also be pupils there for sanction reasons. Doesn't seem to be a problem. School generally not overly strict as far as I know though she has only gone there in 6th form and has lots of freedom so I've no experience of junior school but School generally doesn't have discipline problems. I find all these super strict uniform policies petty beyond belief. It's always a problem finding matching socks in my house (which is a mystery to me as I buy the same ones) so mine would be in trouble for sock infringements the whole time!

FWIW her 6th form dress policy is "the head doesn't want to see up it, down it or through it". Seems fine and sensible to me (and her). Girls learn to dress appropriately with plenty of freedom and look tidy and happy. Compared to DD1 6th where new head announced they should all wear suits. Actual suits, matching material, no separates as per previous policy. Up her arse.

Before reading this thread I had no idea these super strict schools existed. I just don't know what children they would suit. Three days in isolation? That is plain cruel. It all seems designed to break the spirit and snuff out any individuality. DD1 is an extremely self disciplined girl, planning to go into the Navy, the structure and discipline clearly being something she will enjoy and embrace. But she wouldn't have tolerated a school like that. She's always been complimented on leadership qualities and initiative but how can those qualities be nurtured in that sort of environment ? Whilst less confident children will just be broken with no self development.

I really worry for how they can cope when they leave a school like that - do they continue all the way through A levels? Because if they are treated like that until they leave School and then head off to university they will be very seriously underprepared for life beyond School.

the head doesn't want to see up it, down it or through it. Great dress code. It would work for any office. 😊

Perfectly. Exactly. Sets them up for life after school and treats them like responsible adults.

As a High School teacher I used to be amazed at the number of parents of Year 7 pupils who would come in all guns blazing because their little sprog had become difficult and truculent, what was the school going to do about it? Sadly transfer at 11 coincides with puberty about which the school has no control. Why is every problem deemed to be a mental health issue? It's a term of excuse that's bandied about too much.

Yes, it's simple and flexible.

So now I’m an appealing parent who has a fractured relationship with my child. Well thanks for taking time out of your day to give that very helpful advice. I really value the opinions of internet trolls so will definitely do as you tell me

Oh the old you don’t agree with me so I’ll call you a troll

You are subjecting him to bullying and abuse. YOU put him in that situation. Yes that makes you appalling.

Seeing as I have three grown up and very lovely ,successful DC that didn’t go to that sort of prison school ,then I would say I have the right to call you on it.

Apart from the fact that the whole point of OP posting this thread was to get opinions as to whether she should move her child in the first place, Fluffy!

Apart from the fact that the whole point of OP posting this thread was to get opinions as to whether she should move her child in the first place, Fluffy!

The fact she even needs to ask is ridiculous and worrying. She knows it’s wrong.

Yes, insulting people on the internet based on lies you are making up and assumptions, in my mind makes you a troll. A troll hat hasn’t read the thread either, so an uninformed troll. Apologies of that offends you.

And there is no problem that is being deemed a mental health issue (what an unhelpful comment, along the same lines as why is every behavioural issue labelled autism/adhd) But there is very obvious and apparent mental health issues. CAMHS agree, but I’m sure you know best.

Well yes I know it’s wrong, but that’s not what I asked. I asked is it common, as that’s what the school led me to believe.

The strict rules are not my real issue, as obviously I was fully aware of those from the start. My issue is the use of isolation and the reasons for it being used,which I was not aware of as it’s not really featured much in the policies or at all in the open days. So that was my Aibu

I am genuinely bemused by this thread.

Not the OP - the strange responses.

@Imustbemad00 I really hope you manage to get your child out of this awful situation. They need rescuing and you are the person to make that happen.

I hope they are feeling okay tonight after day 3. Honestly, I'd be keeping them home for the remainder of the week and doing everything I could to stop them ever going back. They'll get the break their mental heath needs.

My child needs a fairly strict environment but no-one needs to face abuse, control. And isolation and then have the people dishing it out tell them 'it's your own fault and if you don't go along with it your life will be ruined'.

Shocking.

Thank you for this thread - it's given me a set of questions to ask prospective senior schools when the time comes.

"My issue is the use of isolation and the reasons for it being used,which I was not aware of as it’s not really featured much in the policies or at all in the open days. So that was my Aibu."

Then the answer is yes, because I feel it did say so in the policies that I have read - I understand you disagree with that though and that's fine, it's just my opinion for all it's worth. And as others have said, Isolation/Internal exclusion/Inclusion rooms, or whatever you want to call them, are used in other secondary schools as per their individual policy. EG I know my DC would get a detention for taking a blazer off without permission, even in this hot weather. If they then compounded that by answering back, isolation would ensue. They're not getting isolation for uniform infringement but for disrespect. I don't think this is uncommon. Ignore staff on the "petty stuff" at your peril!

Still I think a fresh new start is the best all round, and I hope your DC is able to move past their issues and get back to enjoying school in the future.

ThinkOfAWittyNameLater
Most isolations are nowhere near the sensory deprivation, abusive awful places some people on here have made out.

Isolation is usually (in every place I've worked in) a classroom with single desks in and dividing boards to prevent studnets distracting each other. Students are usually in there for repeated breaking of rules, repeated disrespect for staff and/or large scale incidents. When in isolation, students work in silence and then have their lunch as a group supervised by staff rather than with their friends.

The danger of saying isolation should only be for violence etc (as some have) ignores the fact that lots of learning is lost each day not due to violence, but due to repeated talking, not following instructions, uniform etc and associated arguments back with staff. It does matter to set expectations and standards (even if I wouldn't personally choose the same as the OP's school) because letting things slide is usually how most mainstream schools start turning for the worse.

I do agree with you on some responses to the OP being weird on here though.

@MaisyPops yes yes yes this

best post all thread

If there is any chance of expulsion then I would seriously consider removing him before it happens or you may struggle to find a suitable school for him.