To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

Superdandy

But it all rather depends on what you're saying. If, by 'sticking your head above the parapet' you mean you're stating falsehoods as facts, you're going to get shot at.

I've read absolutely loads of the trans threads, and posted on a number under various names, and what always strikes me is how robust the gender-critical feminist arguments are. Sometimes angry, yes. But not unreasonably so, given what's at stake.

People talk about being "shouted down" - but I can never understand this. You literally can't be shouted down on a forum. If you've got a good point, explain it. People can read. If you're persuasive, reasonable people will get it.

If, however, you're spouting vague nonsense about things that run counter to science, well yes - you'll find it hard.

And I say that as someone who's tried to argue in defence of "woo" stuff in the face of Bertrand's sturdy arguments

I find FWB very female centred - not that surprising really. I don't agree with everything posted, but I think there is a bit of a siege mentality at times (again, hardly surprising at the moment) which probably does mean differences of opinion are held up for scrutiny to see if they are real and if suspicious, will be treated with hostility. Differences of opinion are perfectly valid, but their are posters who are coming on to stir trouble.
I don't find someone else having a different opinion to me a bad thing in itself, I post/lurk quite a lot on the step parenting boards where you get very diverse opinions. It's good to challenge your own preconceptions sometimes or simply to know what the 'other side' of the argument is.

TornfromtheInside that’s a discussion I’m not willing to discuss here. I’ve done it before, it felt like feeding myself to a pride of lions.

I never really understand the shouted down either. This is MN, posters say what they think. Go on a toddler and parent parking space thread and you can get a robust response to what you think. Lots of MN is like that. The exception are very sensitive forums such as mental health.

Superdandy- that’s such a wilful misrepresentation on your part of how your posts go on FWR. Like the vast majority of anti-women’s rights and pro-trans rughts posters your weak, faith based, anti science arguments do not stand up in the face of the well considered, robust, scientific position of gender critical feminists that are based on hard data and incontrovertible facts. You know this so you just bleat ‘transphobia!’ instead and hope that something sticks.

I suspect those who are pro trans rights have never been negatively affected by this

Well I suspect those who think that you don’t get shouted down on the feminism threads has never disagreed with the herd.

"TornfromtheInside that’s a discussion I’m not willing to discuss here." I rest my case.

Again, for ‘shouted down’ read ‘my poorly thought out, anti science arguments were unable to stand up in the face of clear, calm reason’.

Lifesavingorange are you someone who thinks that my nephew should be called ‘she’ despite the fact that you will almost certainly never meet him or know what suffering he has undergone?

OK- if I ask the questions that I would like to about trans issues will anyone answer them?

Bertrand I won’t have that discussion because it then seemingly gives posters free reign to use hateful and inflammatory language against a family member. It’s an anger I chose not to feel. I’m not here to help you make your point, but should you chose to be so desperate to appear ‘right’ I chose for it not to bother me. I’m on this thread because as I wanted to point out that there was more to feminism than being anti-trans rights.

But I'm not anti trans rights. I am pro trans rights.

But correctly identifying someone’s sex is not hateful. Calling someone a girl, when that is what they are, is the truth, not hate speech.

Ok, I’m confused. What case were you resting then?

Lifesavingorange so you would go ahead and do it because you think it’s right, even if you were asked not to? Even if he sat down and explained that it made him feel worthless and humiliated? You would continue?

There are loads of feminists on Mnet, I'm one of them and I'm not going anywhere. If some FWR regulars chose to go or break the guidelines that were repeatedly requested then they go. Feminism will continue to exist on Mumsnet. FWR might become a bit more diverse and interesting.

“Ok, I’m confused. What case were you resting then?”

That people who call “transphobe” at anyone who has concerns will never, ever, join in any sort of discussion. It’s all or nothing. No interest in explaining. Just “If you see any potential issues you are anti trans”

Dione

skaross I think for me there is a clear distinction between how you react around an individual and discussing this in the abstract/discussing the issues raised by self ID.

If I met your nephew, or in a work or social situation with an individual I would use whatever pronouns they wished. I’d defend them personally against any abuse they received in my presence and I’d ensure any work/social environment was welcoming. I am not anti trans.

Where I want discussion is how the issues raised by self ID etc impact on women’s rights in general. I’ve said on several threads that I see this like any other protected category like religion - to abuse someone for holding a religion is wrong. But to criticise that religious ideology is not wrong. So there is, to me, a big difference between how I react to an individual (as I would any colleague/friend/acquaintance/random person and how I want to talk about how the larger issues affect women and children.

I don’t think that’s unreasonable - there are significant issues that need to be talked about. None of those issues reflect negatively on your nephew or should be in any way used to belittle or harm them as an individual person.

People are what have the protection - ideologies don’t.,

My apologies Betrand

If the "gender critical" crowd went on a boycott, the site could become useable again. So I'm all for it.

If a black person told me they felt persecuted for being black, or that they felt suicidal because the colour of their skin had limited their education and opportunities and subjected them to endless prejudice and if they told me they wished they were white in order to avoid most of that...

I'd sympathise, and admit their feelings are justified, and that it's wrong that people do subject them to such things. That they should be allowed to livee the same life as a white person...

But I wouldn't tell them they were white.

I think for me there is a clear distinction between how you react around an individual and discussing this in the abstract/discussing the issues raised by self ID.

I call those people keyboard warriors.

I am fiercely feminist, pro women and that means pro women including trans women. People who say you can’t be a feminist and be pro-trans can only say that from a somewhat transphobic perspective. If you are satisfied that transwomen are women, there’s no need to exclude them from the rights of women.

I’ve posted sometimes on threads when I’ve felt they’ve gone beyond discussion into gratuitous oppression. People on mumsnet are escalating and emboldening others to use horrific language and make genuinely transphobic statements dressed up as concern, women’s rights and righteous personal opinion.

Im certainly not against discussion and consideration of the issues arising with the acceptance of transwomen as equal to women but in my opinion those issues are 100% the fault and responsibility of criminals and predators. The possible trans status or pretended trans status of these bad people does not give anyone the right to oppress trans people for the actions of others. No more than Muslims are responsible for the actions of terrorists. Any potential issues that arise become the responsibility of the police, not the trans community.

It was time for mumsnet to step in and put some guidelines on language in place. Nothing they have said limits a fair discussion, but does put a stop to hateful ways of discussing.

hideandgo what's your position on transwomen in women's sport?