To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

@hesmyworld

I forgot.

Equality? What, you want women to be able to commit as many rapes and murders as men with impunity? You want young women to have the same suicide rates?

That is a stupid comment. Nobody is "allowed" to commit rape or murder whether they are male or female. By equality, I mean I would like social, economic and political power to be more balanced between men and women. e.g. for women to have equal opportunities in the work place.

Women don't have full equality yet. MN feminists do their bit in hopefully opening the eyes of others to the sexism around us and also making it clear what we need. I am not sure we are after reparations as such although 5000 years of female rule might be rther nice after 5000 years of male rule just to even it up but you could even argue that is equality not reparations!

Outcome or opportunity Xenia?

We do better at school and university and better in the job market until we decide to have children. We have legal protections in the workplace to ensure we're not discriminated against and robust action is taken if we are.

So, in a meritocratic education system we're smashing it. Stats show that in 'more equal' societies, men and women diverge. We're different. Equality of outcome does us all a disservice.

Women are liberated. They now misguidedly want reparations and equality of outcome.

1. We are not liberated at all. No way.
2. Reparations? Umm... no not heard that one. Sounds unrealistic, hyperbolic and detracts from the true debate.
3. Equality of outcome is impossible. No society that’s decent has ever managed it. Equality of opportunity would be nice but that can’t happen in society when it’s set up for men at the expense of women. When the system is like that, equality is not possible until there’s true liberation

What we need to do is build a world where the structures of society allow for the possibility of real equality, then we have the possibility of true equality of opportunity.

I doubt we will ever have equality of outcome. As long as we have a fair and decent safety net and equality of opportunity.

Transactivists don't want compromise. Men don't want compromise.

Robust action is rarely taken actually and plenty of women don't find it in their interests to sue for unfair discrimination. However I certainly accept it's fairer than it was. In the 1890s my great uncle could become a solicitor but his just as clever sister had to become a nurse as she was barred from becoming a doctor.

I certainly understand men's complaints and issues but whilst women own 1% not 99% of the world's wealth and earn a third of the income we have a long way to go.

Things are getting better. It is easier to go to work these days in shoes that allow you to walk in them for example. However I see sexism all the time. Even just casual sexism. I have had men shout at me when I cycle since I was 14 in the 1970s and even at 50+ it still happens - they slow down, open the window shout.... just because I've got large breasts. you would have thought at that my age there might be some let up. My sons have never once had anyone shout at them whilst cycling.

Xenia

"Robust action is rarely taken actually and plenty of women don't find it in their interests to sue for unfair discrimination."

You cleverly made this sound like a fact.

"In the 1890s..."

"[women] earn a third of the income"

I'm pleased you said 'earn'. We earn more when we leave school and graduate with better grades though. If someone makes the decision to take time out from their profession then society shouldn't be adjusted to ensure that their decision has no consequence.

If someone makes the decision to take time out from their profession then society shouldn't be adjusted to ensure that their decision has no consequence.

Trip thank you for your succint reply to the question posed by the thread title. This is exactly why we still need feminism.

Robust action clearly isn't taken. look at the me to movement and I have never reported anything like most women unless we are raped. Secondly, it is not easy for women to bring discrim ination litigation www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/news/legal-system-failing-women-need-reform-says-fawcett-landmark-sex-discrimination-law-review. Thirdly they keep being sacked when off pregnant even today. not most but enough.

Fourthly I agree there is work to be done at home. I would not tolerate sexism for a day and if a husband wanted a parent with the baby all day then he knows he would have to do it. There are also issues of fairness to men too - that they should have just as much right to stay at home and clean the house and all the rest too. We have not got to that position yet.

The third on earnings is worldwide and ditto the 1% of the world's wealth and obviously some countries are worse than others. Sadly we may be going back a bit in the UK as there are a lot of sexist cultures in some cities pushing things backwards again.

I don't believe genuine transwomen pose a significant risk to natal women in terms of safety.

I know this was literally hours ago - but can anyone please tell me how women and girls are to know who is and who isn't a 'genuine' transwoman?

Thanks in advance [I have asked this dozens of times and still no answer].

Trip, aside from your goading use of @ when people ask you not to, the 'come again' comment has been elaborated by Bowl. I could not understand how you could talk about equality and now reparation, but I get your point of view after your last comment how it is a womans own fault if she takes 'time out'.

You have a very different view of feminism and womens chances in society than I have.

@NewbieSpartacus

You're welcome and although there's more than a smidgen of sneeriness in your reply, you couldn't have summarised my opinion better if you'd tried.

I guess your alternative viewpoint is that 'we need feminism so that I [a woman] can decide to take time out, work flexible hours and fewer of them and if anyone is more successful than me I can claim society is against me.' Equality of outcome is for the weak and unintelligent.

@Xenia

"Look at the me too movement"

Again, you make this sound like fact. I like the way you linked to the Fawcett Society on this thread; their findings that people don't want to be called feminists (men and women) is frequently "wrong" on MN and that the majority of the population misunderstand the definition.

"I would not tolerate sexism for a day and if a husband wanted a parent with the baby all day then he knows he would have to do it. "

This simply proves you're confused by what sexism is.

Yes Trip. My alternative viewpoint is exactly that - that I, as a woman, having worked hard and qualified as a lawyer, should be able to take time about without returning on a lower wage and with reduced prospects. In the same way that a man can have a career and a family. Nothing weak or unintelligent about equal opportunities. That's the point of equal opportunities legislation which is widely supported. I don't think you'll win many followers on MN with your opinion.

Time out

I don't believe genuine transwomen pose a significant risk to natal women in terms of safety.

I don't believe most adults pose a significant threat to children either, but we protect children by trying to make sure they aren't alone with random ones.

I don't believe most people are thieves, but we still secure our valuables because we can't identify the few that are.

It's the opportunists who are to be feared, but they do not readily identify themselves to women. Furthermore, as a perfectly normal father with no ulterior motives, I accept that it's inappropriate for me to change in female changing rooms just because I have concern about my daughter's welfare. The needs of the women in that changing room outweigh my concern for my daughter, so I make perfectly sensible alternative arrangements.
Why should that not be the case for a Transwoman with a penis? does her need to be validated / 'accepted' outweigh the needs of the other women in there who don't wish to see a penis, or have no way to determine her motivation?

Most of us are good people, with no desire to harm others, but we are often asked to forego some of our liberties in order to protect others.

I am sick to death of hearing about poor vulnerable trans people; who at a moment's notice will threaten to kill, harass, doxx and bully women in any number of ways. Another clothes swap has been cancelled today due to a TRA threatening a venue because it is being run by a woman who believes in biology. Yesterday - it was a bomb threat. It is one thing after another.

It's very worrying at the moment. I have to admit I'm glad I only have sons.

Re Bertrandrussell
"Would you expect trans person to be outed so as to spare a patient the inconvenience?"
No. But it would take more confidence than most people have to say that you don't want a particular practitioner. And places like rape crisis centres are staffed as far as possible by women. It would be very hard to reject an obviously transwomen practitioner in those circumstances. I know this isn't day to day stuff. But it's important.

This I agree with - that said my Ds has just had an interview where he had to speak about "safe spaces" everyone deserves a safe space, - everyone.