To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

Well, fewer and fewer people wish to identify as a feminist. More and more people see it as an insult (this is across genders). The sooner feminists leave MN the better of this commercial enterprise will be.

Ugh, anyone who sees 'feminist' as an insult is actually a misogynist in my view, whether they realise it or not. Or just really ignorant. Or both. MN definitely needs its feminists, both in the Feminism forum and elsewhere. And when I say MN, I don't mean MNHQ, I mean all of us. There are other places on the internet where you can find sane, intelligent debate, but nowhere else I can think of that brings together such a vast array of subjects and expertise discussed by a critical mass of non-misogynistic people.

I presume this thread is inspired by a perception that 'the feminists' are about to take flight in light of the new guidelines for discussing transgender issues. I'm OK with the new guidelines, but if the Feminism board does wither, and the level of feminist input into topics on other boards deteriorates as a result, then I would probably leave too. I've got no interest in interminable parking and CF threads.

Is this trans related?
I consider myself a feminist and a trans supporter. I don't believe one excludes me from another.

I am in the LGBTQ community and I value my place in both the the feminist and LGBTQ worlds.

I don't think anyine in the LGBTQ community would say I can't be queer and a feminist but I assume people on here would say I'm not a proper feminist if I 100% support trans women and men.

It's a sad situation.

Surely feminism runs through so much of life, it's hard to pigeon hole it as 'feminist chat'. That seems the wrong way to look at things, as though feminism is a niche topic. It's so pervasive, it just naturally appears in many forms across almost all subjects. Sport, fashion, careers, relationships, sex etc. - Feminism has a role to play in them all.

The100% support trans women and men thing is difficult. I 100 % support transpeople’s right to employment, housing, medical care and the “peaceful enjoyment of life” But I think there is a discussion that needs to be had in some areas, and calling me a transphobe for saying that is not helpful. I also don’t support anyone's right to say that a lesbian is transphobic if she doesn’t want to have sex with a person with a penis.

Mumsnet would do well to be RID of it's feminism. I think the things that stand out most in terms of general mumsnet leanings to me is a horrendous stance in permitting blatant transphobia under the guise of feminism.

...lets face it, the only thing mumsnet has going for it is the hilariously ridiculous threads. I'd never even heard of mumsnet until I started to see links to it being shared on another forum whenever there was a ridiculously stupid thread. So I came to witness the crazy first hand. There's plenty uneducated armchair feminism, but it's hardly cutting stuff.

Yes Yes Yes to what Bertrand said. I'm supportive of trans people too. They should have their own safe spaces.

Interesting post to come immediately after mine........

Feminism is about the fight to free women as a caste, from their oppression and domination by men. That clearly affects every area of life. And yes MN does have a general feminist tone.

“And yes MN does have a general feminist tone.”

Sadly I disagree.

I disagree strongly wrenika.

Feminism is a hell of a lot more than Trans debates.
It may well be that many feminists express strong concerns over recent Trans legislation proposals and a seeming disregard for genetic women's right, and it's become a major topic on Mumsnet - but to suggest MN would do well to be rid of feminism seems ludicrous.

I don't disagree that feminism could easily be misinterpreted as aggressive, or overtly forthright in its opinions, but this would indeed be a misinterpretation.

It seems to me that the current issue isn't feminism, it's the singular issue of where to draw boundaries between Transpeople and genetic men and women. It's not anti-trans. It's just a concern about making the right decisions on boundaries to suit ALL of society, not just one section.

The rest of feminists views on a whole host of other matters (and the views can be varied) don't seem to bother many people, it's just the trans situation.

Let's not toss out the baby with the bathwater.

I'm a diehard feminist and even I am willing to concede that FWR has been overrun with trans threads. It is a hugely important and salient topic but I can see that it would put people off if they weren't aware of the issues OR weren't bothered by it and think self-ID won't realistically harm anyone.

But I do think that MNHQ have been scared by the power and scaring tactics of the transactivist lobby, the extremists anyway who threaten to stifle debate.

It's a sad state of affairs. But there's a gender critical subreddit which is pretty good.

There are LOADS of feminists on here who are sick of the anti-trans posters. MN will still have more than its fair share of feminists if you all leave.

It's reading the posts from the so-called "feminists" on this forum that made me realise that people who were mocking them actually had a point, and that the men-haters professionally outraged hysterical harpies really existed in real life.

MN do need them, it's an eye opener.

I wish we could find other words apart from anti trans and pro trans. I am not anti trans. But there are things that TRA (I use the term advisedly, I don't think they represent all trans people) want that I am really unsure about and want to discuss. But somehow I can't.

Yeah, but not the transphobic ones. Spoiler alert, no one needs you.

"men-haters professionally outraged hysterical harpies really existed in real life"
I have truly never come across anyone like this. What was the last one you read talking about?

I think it's a handful of really hardened and seemingly prejudiced feminists that make some uncomfortable, I experienced that myself, but the vast majority manage to express views without it being confrontational or offputting.

But isn't that the same in most forums? There's always one or two almost looking for an argument rather than a debate. I don't think it's unique to feminism!

Whether you agree with the trans threads, you are pro woman, pro trans, pro whatever, what freaks me out are the 'guidelines' about what words you can use and/or in which context. That is word policing and it doesn't sit well with me. These things you now cannot say are either biological fact or go against a certain ideology or belief. It is to me like you are not allowed to say you don't believe in God.
I don't like what is happening with MN on the feminist boards, and if feminists leave, who is next? You can't complain about the government or say anything negative about famous people? Who says where it will stop after feminists go?

I came across two here Bertrand. Just two. Within 5 minutes it felt like my sex was the real issue, not my views. It could well be that my perception was / is wrong, but it didn't feel pleasant and came across (to me) as very co-ordinated, targetted and bitter.

There are potential legal reasons why MN needs to police what is posted very carefully. Running this site does not absolve them of responsibility for what users post.

It's a very difficult situation for website hosts, and no doubt they'll have legal advisors who'll err on the side of caution. The net effect being that some freedom of speech is likely to be curtailed.

@sanluca You'd get short shrift from MNHQ if you used ableist, racist, sexist or homophobic language. Unfortunately people don't seem to be able to self-police when it comes to transphobic language (and the word beginning with T that gender critical feminists consider a slur) so MNHQ have had to define what it consists of in order to ban it. It's no different to banning us from using other hate speech. Or do you consider that "word policing" as well?

and the word beginning with T that gender critical feminists consider a slur
It IS a slur - the word does not exist in any other context. It is also subject to revision in meaning - by TRAs.

It needs them to present different views and I agree about the intelligence level

In RL I am intelligent but on here not so ! I like that actually

And I am doubting that FWR regulars do much Boden and-the-like purchasing.

Why do you think this? I mean obviously we all live in caves and wear hair shirts while sipping Male tears from hand thrown mugs... 🤦🏻‍♀️

I’m a mother, I buy stuff for the kids. And me. And dh. I hold the purse strings in a household with significant disposable income and I make the majority of the purchasing descisions. I’m a professional who needs to look smart sometimes. I buy shitloads of stuff on MN recommendations. I’ve started ‘I need a xxx give me your recommendations’ threads and bought because of them. I’d rather get a recommendation from here, from women who have used something, than almost anywhere else.

When it comes to the demographics I’m the kind of person the advertiser want and need.

The vast majority of posters on FWR are fully supportive of trans rights. I am too - what I’m concerned about is the impact of self ID on the protection of women and children and the huge threats to child safeguarding that poses.

I am not anti trans. I am pro woman, pro child and pro democracy. And pro freedom of speech as Well.

It's a very difficult situation for website hosts, and no doubt they'll have legal advisors who'll err on the side of caution. The net effect being that some freedom of speech is likely to be curtailed.

And yet reddit, pistonheads, kiwi farmers... all the man centred boards - not having this issue. And believe me on here you can see some real transphobic stuff. Nasty stuff. But no one is hounding them into silence - why?

Possible answer: because women speaking is threatening. In 2018 the act of a woman speaking to other women about issues of child protection and the removal of ALL our rights under the equality act 2010 is seen as literal violence

If that doesn’t disturb you, you need to ask why.