Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think MN needs its feminists?

369 replies

crunchymint · 18/06/2018 11:51

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

OP posts:
Skarossinkplunger · 18/06/2018 19:29

Twombly you’ve just proved the point made by many in here that if you don’t agree with feminist posters you’re subject to name calling and abuse.

In real life I call myself a feminist but on MN I don’t because I do not want to be associated with the hateful anti-trans sentiment yet you would have me labelled as a ‘misogynist’ for saying I wasn’t a feminist.

TornFromTheInside · 18/06/2018 19:30

It may depend on where they are hosted.

TornFromTheInside · 18/06/2018 19:32

that if you don’t agree with feminist posters you’re subject to name calling and abuse.

Some feminists, surely?

Skarossinkplunger · 18/06/2018 19:33

Most feminist posters

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 19:34

“Twombly you’ve just proved the point made by many in here that if you don’t agree with feminist posters you’re subject to name calling and abuse.“

So one poster proves your point while you ignore all the other points of view posted on the thread...........

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 18/06/2018 19:35

ska

I cant see where twombly said that if you dont call yourself a feminist then you are misogynistic

I may well have missed it but I honestly cant see it

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 19:42

There have been loads of thoughtful, interesting posts on this thread, Ska. Is there any reason you’re not engaging with any of them?

TornFromTheInside · 18/06/2018 19:52

Must be 200+ feminist posters. Encountered only two that I felt were abrasive. Pretty good going for an opinionated bloke.
I honestly can't see how anybody feels 'most feminists' here conform to a type.

I think there's a danger that we see what we want to see and ignore the rest. We tend to remember the ones that affect us the most and if that's people that rub you up the wrong way, then your perception will be negative.

I've always held a view that one way to judge people is by how they behave when they disagree with you. Plenty have disagreed with me but remained dignified and gone on to agree with me on a different topic. I'm all for that!

AnxiousPeg · 18/06/2018 19:55

I really thought we'd started to make progress. People seemed to be waking up to the issues of self-ID even outside of the feminism boards.

But now this thread has totally depressed me. Do people really think being pro-women is being anti-trans?

The discussion on FWR boards is not transphobic.

There are trans gender people on there - agreeing with the gc feminists

We are truly going backwards now.

vicviking · 18/06/2018 19:56

First they came for the feminists....

Those of you who think the MRAs will stop once they've destroyed the feminist board are naive.

I am surprised at how complcit MN is being in its own erasure.

LockedOutOfMN · 18/06/2018 19:56

I love the Mumsnet feminists and they have taught me so, so much and opened up my eyes to the world. As a secondary school teacher with pastoral responsibilities I've read so many really important articles linked on the MN boards and found out so much about things like the gender pay gap (just one example) which have then informed my assemblies and PSHE sessions with my students.

I agree with the OP that MN feminists perform a vital function.

I aspire one day to join you!

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/06/2018 19:59

Must be 200+ feminist posters. Encountered only two that I felt were abrasive. Pretty good going for an opinionated bloke.

And I presume you’ve been on AIBU amd seen the ratio of poster:abuse there?

Women are allowed to be abrasive, you know. There aren’t many places in real life that allow women to say what they think - there’s endless social pressure to be nice / to shut up, to be decorative, to not rock the boat, to be pleasant. Imagine if you, an opinionated male, had to live like that. You’d go crazy. It drives us crazy.
Women are opinionated too. And on FWR that is allowed. There are posters on there I vehemently disagree with - we’ve had some real debates. do I want them silenced? Of course not. I will engage with the points they raise, and play the ball not the (wo)man. That’s what discussion fora are for, right?

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/06/2018 20:00

Come on over lockedout! :) we welcome you with open arms and a nice cuppa.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 20:05

Weird, isn’t it, that FWR is the only bit of Mumsnet where women are not allowed to be rude, angry or opinionated.

I’ve been called all sorts on threads about education. pets, baby names- and recently, Chinese food!

SuperDandy · 18/06/2018 20:05

I am quite heartened by this thread. I've been sticking my head above the parapet in the feminist chat board and it's really really hard going in there for any sort of ally to trans people.

The sort of posts I tend to challenge are clearly and evidently hostile and prejudiced towards trans people. I've given up even trying to go against the tide of the general tone in there. That horse bolted long ago. I'm not going to give examples here, but feel free to search my username and follow the trail. Some of it is breathtakingly transphobic, and that's not a word I use lightly.

For my pains, I've been called a man, and MRA, a TRA, a troll, a handmaiden, careless of the rights of women and children, hopelessly niaive, misogynist, not a feminist, a seagull, a plopper, a brigadier. I've been laughed at, snarked at by a whole big gang of posters, accused of being goady, a plant, friend to TRAs who hate women, supporter of child abusers. I've been piled on, openly ignored, scorned and insulted. If I say that I find the board to be hostile to trans allies I'm shouted down and abused, if I quote certain posters I'm accused of being part of a coordinated targeting attack, and of silencing of women.

I've seen said in there many times that differing viewpoints are welcomed, but that is not my experience at all. Apparently that's because I'm a troll and incapable of intelligent discussion (I'm paraphrasing here).

Regular posters on the board repeatedly asked for clarification of limits on what was acceptable. Now that mn have done that, and included some things the fem board regular Gender critical posters specifically asked for, there is uproar, mudslinging at MNHQ, and allegations of corrupt or cowardly moderation, misquoting of the guidelines etc etc.

I honestly haven't a clue how MNHQ are keeping patience in the face of it. They have stuck their necks out and resisted external pressure for a long time, worked hard to reach a compromise position to permit continued discussion, and this is the outcome. Not content with stirring up rebellion in the fem boards, the GC regulars seem to want the whole of mn to rise up in their defence.

To me it now seems like one of those situations where a group has been given leeway on some points, and have now taken that to be a right to go further, and further in that vein, and now refuse totally to accept or acknowledge that they've gone too far. It's like trying to join in a conversation with the mean girls in the school playground, and the people in the receiving end of the nastiness are all too frequently real , named people, including children and parents living the reality of having a family member who is trans.

I've kept going so far because I just can't bear to leave it unchallenged when it goes so far, but goodness me it's tough. I totally get why others have simply left the feminist boards entirely, and that's a great pity, to be driven away.

TornFromTheInside · 18/06/2018 20:16

One danger is that the impression you get on the Feminist section is going to be from the most vociferous of posters, which isn't going to be a true reflection of the broader range of opinions. This is an issue on almost all internet forums.
As long as you're aware of this, it'll let you see things in a different light, and you have to look beyond those relative few. It might seem like it's not a few, but many, but in truth, there's going to be an awful lot of quieter posters in the background avoiding conflict.

The Trans issue is so significant, that arguments are very passionate, and sometimes overflow into argument. That's a shame, but it's born out of real concern that society might make an irrevocable mistake and erode the rights of genetic women. It's not unreasonable for people to be worried about that. It's not anti-trans (though like anything, some folks might be), I truly believe the vast majority of feminists on here don't want to undermine Transpeople or their rights. They just don't want to undermine those of genetic women either.

Skarossinkplunger · 18/06/2018 20:24

There are some engaging posts on this thread, but like other people in here I’m angry at the abuse I’ve received in here for being pro transgender rights and Twombly’s leapt our at me.

Skarossinkplunger · 18/06/2018 20:28

What’s really saddened me (and then made me angry as fuck) is the insistence of some posters in here that my transgender nephew must be referred to as ‘she’ because he was assigned female at birth. This type of bullying resulted in a suicide attempt and the culprits were dealth with in school however there are people on here who think it’s perfectly appropriate.

BertrandRussell · 18/06/2018 20:30

Fair enough. There is something quite telling that all the ooh, I'd like to post, but i'm fed up with being shouted at posters are not taking the opportunity here to make their points. Just chucking"transphobic" about like confetti.

NoIWontDoWhatYouSay · 18/06/2018 20:42

SuperDandy - loads of posters will agree with everything you said and have experienced it too. Most won't say it here though because they can't be bothered anymore in a lot of cases.

There have been a few threads and posts trying to disagree with the current outrage and hostility against MNHQ but people tend to abandon them when they've been pushed off or threatened with being reported for trolling or accused of being TRAs/misogynistic/handmaidens. Having everything said being misinterpreted or twisted or dismissed as not being a real MNetter or indeed a real feminist.

Amongst all the very loud shouting about how certain views are being silenced (with no evidence at all this is happening given the volume of threads and posts and the fact that there haven't been swathes of GC suspended. Or even any? I don't even see people complaining they're being deleted often) there are lots of posters who do feel silenced. Even if just because they don't want to have the same arguments and meet the same hostility.

Because it's pointless. One side can't see the hate, the other side can't not see it. Both sides can't understand why the other doesn't agree with them.

crunchymint · 18/06/2018 20:44

I suspect those who are pro trans rights have never been negatively affected by this. I think feminism should always put first the most marginalised women. Women who are homeless, prostituted, in prison.

OP posts:
crunchymint · 18/06/2018 20:45

And these issues affect real people. So of course posters get emotional about it. It is not a theoretical discussion.

OP posts:
vicviking · 18/06/2018 20:45

I see FWB as pro women and not anti trans. I also see it as important for people to be able to use reason and facts. FWB has that in spades.

Advertisers like that as it often goes along with a higher income and decent spending power. MN has to walk a fine line on this issue but I think they risk driving away an important group of posters and losing some of what makes them different from netmums.

TornFromTheInside · 18/06/2018 20:48

Out of curiosity Skaross, which transgender rights are you 'pro' for?
And which genetic female right are you 'pro' for?

And what happens if / when the two collide?

I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious, because I as a man consider myself pro Trans rights, and pro Women's rights, but I have encountered conflicts with some rights, and chosen to favour those of existing genetic women over Transwomen.

You may argue there is no conflict, but I have rationalised that there is.
It sometimes feels like I am making a decision to send a rapist to prison for 8 years, when the victim wants 10 years and the rapist wants 6 years.
It doesn't make me anti-women, or pro-rape. Just makes me a normal person trying to do what I feel is just.

crunchymint · 18/06/2018 20:51

Feminism is about women. Surely anyone who calls themselves a feminist should be pro women?

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread