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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Children kept in cages - Texas

237 replies

JerushaAbbott · 18/06/2018 04:31

This article in the Guardian today: Children in cages.

What can a non-US citizen do? I know there are undoubtedly worse atrocities happening somewhere in the world, but this article has shocked me.

When I was younger I was involved in anti-apartheid demos, CND, Greenham etc. Now I feel hopeless.

OP posts:
sleepingdragons · 19/06/2018 12:23

It's one thing to know your grandparents were adults during such a very, very shameful time, it would be another to read their disgusting attempts to justify and support what was happening. That's what your grandchildren will be able to do and don't doubt that most will. So cop on and be people they will be proud of, not disgusting child abuse apologists who they will not be able to reconcile with the person they grew up loving.

Well said.

AngeloMysterioso · 19/06/2018 12:23

THEsonofaBITCH

apology accepted

If JerushaAbbott did misinterpret your meaning then please do tell us what you actually meant... because that interpretation looks pretty spot on to me.

A4710Rider · 19/06/2018 12:25

So cop on and be people they will be proud of

I would hope that my grand children will be able to see that I looked for a pragmatic solution and just didn't spend my time virtue signalling.

Mistigri · 19/06/2018 12:26

"What do you suggest is the answer is then? Should the USA take in everyone who asks?"

You need to answer the question. If separating small children from their parents does not cross the line, where DO you draw the line?

sleepingdragons · 19/06/2018 12:27

walls made of open fencing to keep groups separate

Do the children have freedom of movement through these fences? If not, it's a cage FFS.

Stop splitting hairs.

Do you think the people who supported the Nazis were rubbing their hands together thinking "ooh aren't we evil"?

Or do you think they thought they were decent people, while justifying and rationalising the actions of their government?

LapsedHumanist · 19/06/2018 12:30

Rider It could help you thus:

  1. You would see the Cartel mess as being partly of the US’s own making, and by taking responsibility for that, it would help you frame better foreign policy going forward
  2. It might stop the extent of economic, socia, political and military meddling the US indulges in Central and South America which contributes greatly to the political, social and economic instability in the area.
  3. Decriminalisation/legalization within the US itself could limit the degree of violence within the drug trade
AngeloMysterioso · 19/06/2018 12:30

Tringley

As an Irish person one of the things that really gets to me is that we have just lived through having millions of American dollars illegally sent to Ireland to finance an attempt to subvert our democracy under the banner of Love Both (a pro-life group). Millions of dollars from the same people who are at best doing fuck all about these children but are most likely supporting and justifying this policy. What loving both are they doing now? They are absolute fucking bastards claiming to want to save innocent babies and doing nothing for desperate children on their own doorstep.

This!!

Semster · 19/06/2018 12:31

Not a fan of sperating the families but Obama did start it all off with a pledge to accept all children

Can you give some evidence of this?

LapsedHumanist · 19/06/2018 12:31

Rider Do you know why the drug cartels became so deeply entrenched in Mexico?

A4710Rider · 19/06/2018 12:33

You need to answer the question If separating small children from their parents does not cross the line, where DO you draw the line

Why are you asking me that question? My personal thoughts are irrelevant to the situation.

Semster · 19/06/2018 12:34

What do you suggest is the answer is then? Should the USA take in everyone who asks?

There are many many many other options. The tiniest amount of reading around the subject would give you several.

For example, the Trump administration could simply go back to doing what the Obama and Bush administrations did.

heateallthebuns · 19/06/2018 12:35

Separating children from their parents described as a 'pragmatic response'? I am appalled. There are some things which cannot be justified under any circumstances.

Semster · 19/06/2018 12:36

Oh how commonplace, another America bashing thread, for me to now hide along with the rest

There are many America bashing threads on MN, but in this case the bashing is completely deserved.

Millions of Americans disagree with Trump's actions on this, and agree with the rest of the world's outrage.

chicken2015 · 19/06/2018 12:36

I would like to know your answer to that and im happy to answer ur question

A4710Rider · 19/06/2018 12:37

Do you know why the drug cartels became so deeply entrenched in Mexico

Yes. Again, what is the relevance of this, how does it affect the solution we need to come up with? Finger pointing is utterly worthless at this moment in time.

Original poster
JerushaAbbott · 19/06/2018 12:37

@THEsonofaBITCH

I'd really like to understand how I've misinterpreted your post.

Or do you think they thought they were decent people, while justifying and rationalising the actions of their government?

This is a really good point. I believe that most people don't set out to be inhumane. What has particularly got to me with this is the stated intention of powerful men and women to use children and vulnerable people to achieve their political goals.

OP posts:
chicken2015 · 19/06/2018 12:37

Isnt what your are discussing ur personal thought? Isnt that what conversations r?

Battleax · 19/06/2018 12:38

If separating small children from their parents does not cross the line, where DO you draw the line?

It’s not the separating from children from parents that’s novel or unprecedented. (That’s a risk of breaking the law in any jurisdiction.) What’s truly shocking is that the children aren’t being cared for the way US citizen would be cared for if their parents were arrested.

That is the way to attack the policy. You can’t hold children in essentially penitentiary condition ms and escape the world’s condemnation. You just can’t;

news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-lone-children-kept-in-cages-in-us-border-patrol-prison-11408321

Semster · 19/06/2018 12:39

Genuinely didn’t know about the busses around here, where are they??

Bangor Daily News today.

bangordailynews.com/2018/06/18/news/state/concord-coach-lines-employee-tells-passengers-they-must-be-us-citizens-to-ride/

Blerg · 19/06/2018 12:39

This hasn’t been keeping me awake. I can’t imagine having to go through this as a child or parent. I have donated to Together Rising.

Anyone attempting to justify this needs to really take a long hard look at themselves. Just because something is ‘legal’ doesn’t make it morally abhorrent.

TheClaws · 19/06/2018 12:40

Or do you suggest that the USA takes in the whole country

It’s this sort of hyperbole that characterises Trump supporters, I find.

THEsonofaBITCH · 19/06/2018 12:42

I agree with securing the illegal immigrants for processing - which is deportation or social services ASAP. I agree with keeping everyone safe from different populations - ie no kids with gang members; no unaccompanied young women with unaccompanied young men, etc. I wish they would keep families together and secure. I disagree they are "cages" but rather securing the areas. No the INS didn't use cages they said they were okay with the term if that's what people want to say as it means a secure area. Obama did make the problem much worse with THOUSANDS of kids sent to the border alone by their parents due to his DACA and amnesty programs and we continue to have problems from it. I agree with securing the borders. I want the security and "cages" to be as humane as possible and for families to be kept together. I wish we didn't have to do any of this and people would respect the borders and do things properly - it often is less expensive though longer run than using the coyotes.

LapsedHumanist · 19/06/2018 12:42

Rider

  1. México used as smuggling staging point for alcohol during Prohibition
  2. When Prohibition relaxed, narcotic smuggling replaces alcohol smuggling
  3. Narcotic smuggling from Mexico to US intensifies during the Sixties, as a result of the increased US drug use in that period
  4. In the 1980s, increased US efforts to reduce drugs smuggled from Columbia (the then home of the dominant cartels e.g. Escobar) via the Caribbean and Florida by sea routes, push the flow,of drugs onto land based routes via Mexico. The Mexicans involved in this are paid in product, so they become involved not just in shipping but also distribution. This ramps up the extent of criminal networks in Mexico.
  5. When the Colombian Cartels are toppled (and plenty of US involvement in that), it creates a vacuum- one which the Mexican Cartels step in to fill. Which leads to the situation you have today in Mexico, and Honduras.

Throughout this period, illicit drug consumption in Mexico is much, much lower than in the US.

kirinm · 19/06/2018 12:43

That some ex UK citizens attempt to compare immigration from a perfectly safe country like the UK to people fearing for their lives from a country like Honduras is fucking laughable. They are imprisoning children. You need to check your privilege and your morals.

Trumps press secretary has said today they won't reconsider the legislation unless Mexico agree to pay for his stupid wall so the kids are being held as pawns. His supporters should be totally ashamed.