To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

@bellinisurge I'm not going to go over the whole "referendum was advisory" which is a statement not only of fact but of statute (go to Hansard and you will see that at no point was it enshrined in the wording that this referendum was binding on Parliament and that it had to be adopted; it is still an advisory referendum).

It was perfectly possible to have required a certain size turnout or a certain size vote to overturn the status quo. After all, Mr Farage said if the vote was close at 52/48 in favour of remain, he'd have fought for a second referendum.

It's not caveats about the wording of the question but caveats about the structure.

I also think it should have been treated as advisory. Because that's what the law said. But it wasn't. Can you imagine the whining if it had been treated any way other than how it was treated.
I have no sympathy for anyone who voted Leave. And no excuses for their catastrophic error.

Agreed, Leave voters can suck up the abject failure of what they voted for.

Of course the fact that it was advisory made room for a close split, and even the brexit campaigners said it would mean unfinished business if there was a close win for remain.

Forcing through an advisory referendum result as if it was binding is utterly undemocratic and undermines any of the democracy and sovereignty arguments fundamentally.

But of course they were just soundbites, like the rest of the campaign.

All fur coat and no knickers.

We're fucked now whatever way you look at it. Far from healing the divisions with the Tory party, the referendum has made them worse. We leave the EU in under a year and we're still nowhere.

A leadership election throws everything up in the air. Davis has done, frankly, an appalling job. A general election - who the fuck would you vote for? Because you'd have a chunk wanting to vote for a hard Brexit Tory party, a chunk wanting to vote for a soft Brexit Labour party and a chunk wanting to vote for an anti-Brexit party.

Labour won't come out as a stop Brexit party for fear of pissing a good chunk of the 52% who would punish them in the way they punished the LibDems for going into coalition. The Tories will have a new leader whom a great section of the public will hate. The LibDems and Greens who would campaign to reverse Brexit aren't anywhere near feasible.

We would, I suspect, end up with a totally hung Parliament and where the fuck do you go then? And all the while the Brexit clock is ticking...

The whole theory of the likes of David Davis that the EU would more or less come begging and give us everything we want was ludicrous. Even if you dislike the EU (and there's much I dislike), we actually had a pretty good deal, with a very useful veto. And as has been seen recently, freedom of movement is under the spotlight in other countries.

Cameron was the architect of the mess, those who voted Leave approved the plans.

"And as has been seen recently, freedom of movement is under the spotlight in other countries."

No, immigration in the form of refugees not FOM. Lots of the Brexit side are getting excited over this, and conflating the two.

No, topcat not just as regards refugees, although that's mostly what is being reported. A couple of countries own governments have been discussing this - not at a major policy level, but it's certainly being discussed.

But its not the issues that were discussed at last weeks summit is it?

Which countries, and where is the evidence of this? Cause you know people on MN often state things that they have no back up for.

FOM isn't going to change, not even here where it will be the same rules as before under another name.

Oh I don't for one moment say FOM is going to change, short term or long term. And it's not relevant to the immediate situation. What I am saying is that things can change, things can be discussed and are being discussed but walking away doesn't enable you to be involved. We had a stronger hand in the EU than many felt we did and clearly the very serious issue of the Irish border and how FOM impacts there hadn't even crossed our politicians' minds. Unlike the Irish Government's and the EUs

GhostofFrankGrimes The Government then

Why blame the government? The vote was a referendum.

The referendum was the equivalent of taking your child into a hardware shop and asking them which sort of cake they would like. There is NO cake.

Agree with everything Shatner has said.

And re: refugee crisis - in order to solve this problem properly - we need more European cooperation, not less.

bellinisurge Sorry, but isn’t up to the government to carry out the referendum result or do the general public have to do their job for them, they let the public have the vote by a vast majority

So who is it up to?

Oh and 2.9% is not a "Vast majority"

topcat1980 I think you will find over 500 Mp’s gave the public the referendum, so yes a vast majority

An advisory referendum, which is why none of the caveats suggested were applied.

Not a binding one.

Do keep up.

@Rosstac which is why we don't have direct voting and, when we do as in this case, we are shit at it. Ireland does a much better job.
But Leavers think they can blame the government for this they really are as stupid as I try not to say they are.

David Cameron campaigned in the GE prior to the referendum in having an In/Out referendum. He won a mandate at that GE and delivered on this promise.
And we are all screwed as a consequence.

Voters had two chances to stop this. At the GE and in the referendum. They didn't. It is the fault of the voters. It was not some stealth policy. People voted for it. God help us all.

@Rosstac You really don't understand how parliamentary democracy actually works, do you?

Teh GE wasn't really fought about Brexit though was it.

People voted for other reasons other than Brexit, which is of course why May didn't quite get qhat she wanted.;

Teh voice of teh people

@bellinisurge At times I think benign dictatorship is the best method!!

@topcat1980 - I mean the one before the referendum not TM's foolishness.

@ShatnersWig we ride this out and focus on our personal best interests. That's why I prep. That's why I don't give as much of a shit about people's sob stories as I used to.

Quite. Which is why I am obtaining Irish citizenship and an Irish passport.