to say, about Kate Spade's apparent suicide?

[Standandwait]

... that there are two things I take away from this:

1. there are a lot of people out there who you think are just fine and should be so happy but just aren't... not only Kate Spade, what about Robin Williams? Be aware others may be fragile and try not to hurt them.

2. if you think you're worthless and a failure remember there are probably other people out there who admire you and wish they were like you. Don't kill yourself get help.

Eyeslikethesea sending healing thoughts. You will recover from this. Sending love and strength.

Then you need to educate yourself. And no one is saying anyone grieves wrongly. But calling out people is. It IS an illness. It's ok to be angry. But don't tell potentially suicidal people they are selfish. You might as well just load the gun for them.

Haribo. Then stop saying it's selfish. It doesn't matter if you're a parent or not. You are damaging people. Real people.

Not all rational ability is removed by mental illness in every case

No, but I think it's ok to accept for many it does?

I'm very sorry about your father, and I'm sorry that as an adult you still feel it's difficult to deal with, and your view his act was selfish, is what matters, because you were his child.

But it's not ok to generalise, I'm sorry. Everyone is different. Suicide is not an easy option for anyone. It's one done by someone in a lot of pain, incapable of rationalising their act, in many and most instances. And maybe you can accept that although you do not feel this was the case with your father, that maybe for others, that is exactly the case.

Suicide by it's very definition will always be selfish. The question is deliberately selfish or not. For your father you feel yes, for others this will not be the case.

Kate spade took her life in such a horrific and brutal way I cannot even begin to comprehend how she must have been feeling, the pain she must have been in to contemplate it, never mind do it . I would suspect that was due to a lot of pain and an inability to rationalise her act.

I only hope her daughter can understand she was ill and this was a symptom of that, she very likely died due to mental illness, and I think that should be considered in many cases.

As a Pp said, it's easy for us to understand when our bodies are broken. It's not so easy when it's our minds. 💐

Disgusting to compare that to someone dying from cancer

My mother used the fact that she knew she had cancer as a means to kill her self. To the outside world she was unfortunate to develop that particular cancer. To her family she refused medical help on purpose because she was suicidal and this was her way out.

I wanted to die many times in my life. I went through a phase of playing a sort of Pharmaceutical Russian roulette with various drugs that I had. I was unsuccessful, and I was lucky in that I had an intervention at a time when I was in a better place and that helped me survive. Otherwise I would have continued to try.

However, I will, one day end up ending it myself. I'm happy now. I have a fab partner and a good life, but I have no children and never will have children and so when the time comes, it will be up to me to end it.

@Pettynotvindictive - I have found your posts so sad but very insightful. I suppose for my own comfort it would be soothing to believe children in your situation would be able to find a place of peace and be able to forgive. But of course, I now can see that you were so hurt and betrayed on such a personal level that you have every right to feel the way you do and scars that deep probably won’t always heal the way everyone else would like.

I think the idea of it being a choice is incredibly damaging.

The last moments of a suicide victims life are not those of a rational person capable of making any sort of moral/rational/medical choice for themselves.

I imagine there are a lot of frightened people reading this thread and hope they are able to ring someone right now to talk about it - Even if it is Samaritans. Not talking makes these thoughts worse so please, please talk to someone.

Kate Spade didn't choose anything - She died from a very real, incredibly serious illness.

Not all rational ability is removed by mental illness in every case

no it isn't just as not every illness is terminal.

There is a difference between mental illnesses just as there is a difference between physical illnesses.

Not everyone with depression will go on to take their own life. I still say that it isn't a choice people make rationally. I guess ultimately they are the one that decides to carry out the act but it isn't a rational choice in the same way as we wouldn't allow someone with latter stage dementia to manage their own affairs, if we knew how these people were feeling then we wouldn't be allowing them to take decisions about whether they live or die.

I'm not sure I've articulated that correctly really.

💐 for everyone effected by suicide. We had a very close friend who due a twist of fate was discovered by someone who shouldnt have been there but saved his life and cut him down. He told people He couldnt remember what led to him doing it.

Suicide angers and frightens people because it pours cold water on a couple of myths.

1. That it is always enough to live for other people, such as your child, if you are in horrendous pain. It's not enough to live for other people, you have to live for yourself, however you do this.

2. That everyone is a valued human being who will be missed or mourned.

Poor Kate Spade is obviously somebody who will be missed. She will leave a heartbroken space in her child's life, as well as in many other peoples lives, I imagine.

I'm not sure I've articulated that correctly really

I understand what you're saying. Some folks with mental illness get past the point of rationale decision. If we knew we would do something to ensure they were unable to make those decisions and protect and help them, but we often don't know.

In a dementia sufferer we can see it, but we cannot see it many times in someone who is suffering from mental illness, even a court of law will say this person does not have rhe mental capacity.

But with someone mentally ill, we don't see it all to often, it's hidden, and they then make a decision to take their lives, a decision had they been mentally well, they would not have taken.

It's very sad indeed.

My friend killed himself aged 19. He was my sister’s best friends boyfriend.

I was 16.

He put an hose pipe into his exhaust pipe.

The last time I saw him he was really really drunk and tried to grab me sexually and I told an adult.

The church was packed with his friends but not one of those people he felt he could turn to.

This wasn’t why he killed himself it was a symptom of the shit he was going through but it still profoundly affects me to this day and it was 27 years ago.

Thank you bluntness, that's exactly what I meant.

I don't even know if my Dad knew what happened to his parents. We were always just told they'd died in the war. Which is true as it was during the war, just not as a result of it which is what we thought. My Dad died at 67 and it wasn't until years after that I was doing the family tree and had to order in supplementary records with the death certificates that I found out. I struggled to raise it with my mum at this point and she died without me ever finding out whether she or my dad actually knew.

I give up...

I wasn’t really making a point.

I was just sharing my experience of suicide.

It ripples everyone involved lives - for years.

I think if i had to put it on balance, was Kate spade being selfish or was she very ill?

As an outsider who didn't know her, I would say rhe odds are overwhelming this was a very ill lady, who lost the mental capacity for rational thought due to her illness and made a decision that had she been healthy she would never, ever have made.

The fact that no one knew how ill she was, is no reflection on them. Mental illness by its very nature is often not articulated as it should be.

I would urge anyone having these thoughts to seek help. To understand they may have an illness that's impacting their thoughts. And if that illness could be managed, they would never consider what they are considering.

It's time we stopped differentiating between mental and physical illness. There should be no shame in the former, as they can be just as fatal.

Actually haribo from what you've described here it sounds more like your Dad had some kind of personality disorder or mental damage due to substance abuse. I'm really not an expert though.

I still say that most suicides due to mental illness are not done for selfish reasons and that is really not a feature of the thought process. That doesn't preclude someone with a different illness from dissociating the fact that they'd be dead from the fact that they were really going to cause pain to people they wanted to cause pain to.

That still means they were ill or disordered as that motivation is very fucked up. It still doesn't mean that given rational thought they'd still choose to do that.

Sad.

I'm still devastated about Alexander McQueen and that was 8 years ago.

But I agree that it's not as simple as "getting help". Don't underestimate the desperate state of mind people who commit suicide are in. It's not something I imagine you can ever understand unless you have been there. One of my good family friends committed suicide, and none of us were aware that he was in that dark a place. I don't think simply "getting help" was an option for him.

And I'm sorry that this is still causing you pain. If nothing else it means he's still having some control over your life. What is it they say? The best revenge is a life well lived?